Is Ryanair worth it?

[eijk1234]

Recently I was contacted by one of Ryanair´s hiring companies to come down for a simulator assesment. I applied via Ryanair´s online website and did not realize they where recruiting me for contract work. I am not sure what to do now.

My current position is turbo-prop captain with no jet time at all. Therefore I see it as something very important to get my hands on some jettime as soon as possible, for otherwise I might be stuck on turboprops perminently. Not that that is a bad thing, but I would like to get my hands on something else.

The writting on the forum is making me wonder. Is this contract a general improvement to my current position, or should I stick to what I have. Basically I would be giving up a permanent job, as captain, with decent wage, to go on a contract with Ryanair, and invest some 30.000 euros. This would be ok if I do it for some time and then be able to get a job in my home country, at my preferred base.

So I am basically wondering:
Is the contract solid?
Will I really be flying 900 hrs and make the money they say?
Is it true that the intend is to change me to a permanent contract when available?
What about paying taxes and stuff, do I have to sort it out myself?
Are things getting worse or better in Ryanair.

Hope anyone can give me some info on this. I have to make a choice soon.

Thanks

[bacardi walla]

IMHO - stay where you are. It's my opinion based on what I've heard from people within FR. Good luck.

[moku]

Be cautious if its Alteon. They bring you in for the sim evaluation pass you, and everyone, and THEN have ryanair interview you. So you could end up not passing the Ryanair interview (a 20 min BS session with DD) even though you passed the sim. Costing you over £340 for 45 min a sim with ZERO feedback!! Happend to 5 people a few weeks ago!. A nice little earner for Alteon. And of course they can then blame Ryanair saying that for some reason which they were not told you were not selected this time, even though they recommended you.

Be warned everone.... another aviation Ripoff!!!

Moku.

[atse]

eijk1234. Difficult decision, difficult-ish questions.

"Is the contract solid?"

No. The contract varies by the time of day and in any case very few people feel it appropriate to look for what their contract entitles them to (read the thread on "Ryanair - a call to arms" to start to understand why).

"Will I really be flying 900 hrs and make the money they say?"

Yes to the 900 hrs. The money I can't advise about - it depends a bit on what "they" say!!

"Is it true that they intend is to change me to a permanent contract when available?"

Unlikely. They intend to do only what they find suitable to their needs (which might be to change you to a permanent contract when the time comes). Many contract pilots have long since met the legal requirements for full time employment entitlements, but have not chosen to assert their legal entitlements. Why? .... see "Ryanair - a call to arms" to get a sense of the environment.

"What about paying taxes and stuff, do I have to sort it out myself?"

Can't help you here. Ask your potential hiring company (and be careful with your questions and the answers to those questions ... it may be your last opportunity to ask questions for some time!!).

"Are things getting worse or better in Ryanair."

Worse. And heading downwards. But that does not mean that it is a bad decision for YOU to join Ryanair, just that it is a difficult decision.

The great debate at present is whether or not BALPA and IALPA can organise the Ryanair pilots to stop the rot. A lot will hang on the outcome. It is fair to say that, at the moment, there has never been such unhappiness and distrust of management. There are also pockets of happiness. But they tend to involve the new or innocent.

[eijk1234]

Thanks for all that info guys. I actually ended up doing a sim before the interview, but that will be ok, since it is not with the company you indicated. I have at this time no idea of what contract is gonna be offered which is kind of nasty since I did spend 400 bucks on the sim assessment but such is life in the industry these days. I hope they offer me some contract which will allow me to count on a little bit, otherwise I will probably not go for it. Some hard tinking to do here. Thanks.

[Duck-U-Suckerz]

I would say, Just treat them like the tarts they are and go get your jet time with them, then go work for which ever airline takes your fancy. You'll have the jet time, the world will be your oyster!

[SNNEI]

eijk1234,

I agree very much with what has been mentioned above. I dont work for FR myself, but know a few who do.

What I can tell you is that, as a Dutchman, you will find working for O'leary difficult. I lived in the Netherlands for three years, and so I know the Dutch tendency towards fairness and hearing everyone's point of view. Trust me when I say that O'leary's "I know it all, screw the rest of you" attitude will make you want to puke: I cant even stand to listen to him, or hear what his workers tell me about him.
So if i might say so, I think you will have a slight "cultural" barrier to get through there.

All the same, there may be a very many good reasons for you to consider joining up, so choose wisely!

Tot ziens, en veel succes! ;-)

[Canadiankid]

1234

As a fellow turbo skipper I will say this. Don't do it. We are losing pilots both FO's and Capts to jet operators with absolutely NO COST to them. Just have to sign a standard training agreement. Use your experience and not your wallet to get your next job. They are out there. Patience will work. Let Ryan take people from the bottom of the barrell etc.....Screw them. Looks like the cost of those shiny new jets is catching up to them.


My two cents.

[thedude]

Unless your out of work, or feel you have no real skill to offer, should you consider buying yourself a job. You'd have to be nuts!! Don't de-value the profession.
:cool:

[AA717driver]

Duck-u-Suckerz has it right. Use them like a whore you bought with your enemy's credit card... Or something like that!

They are using you. It may be pay for "experience" but when a better deal comes around, don't let the door hit you in the butt on the way out.

And take a moment to savor the speech they give you about loyalty and not being honest with them as you are turning in your I.D. and manuals enroute to a better job.

F' em!TC

[eijk1234]

Thanks or the advice guys. Not gonna do it in the end. Guess that the final argument of thedude makes sense. I don´t want to de-value the profession more than it has been done so far. Just hope I won´t need them somewhere in the future. Cause I am burning this ship.

Cheers

[thedude]

eijk1234,

well done! Not an easy decision I am sure, but good to see someone stand up to a principle. The tide will gradually change for FR and their ilk.

There is nothing so certain in the aviation business as change and I am sure that the the right opportunity will arise at some future time. Good luck.

:cool:

[Mach trim]

I am also debating the Ryanair option having also been offered a job there.

I am experienced with time on jets but I don`t have time on a useful type and looking for work

I am against paying for a type rating in principle and have never done so but....

WHat about this ? One has factor your pay over two years and deduct the cost of the type rating and consider that one is contracting out one`s services as a type rated 737 pilot.

Can one keep one`s pride this way or not.

Many pilots do not stick together ( paying for type ratings to get ahead ) and only look out for themselves.

What is the cost of being unemployed six months looking for another job ?

Are there experienced pilots willing to pay for a type rating ?

I assume that Ryanair is going to be short of Captains soon. Captains slots will be open.

The fault is not only with Ryanair it is with the pilot(s) who are willing to pay for the type rating.

Look how many other companies ask for type rated pilots,only.

Are there Ryanair pilots who would defend their company on this post ?

It would be interesting here more from the Ryanair guys.

Ryanair is growing and profitable. Pilots are only a part of the total equation.

The most important issue for me is : What is the safety level of this airline ? What about CRM and atmosphere ?
It doesn`t sound that great.

[irishmafia]

my 2 penneth.


for:
rosters rock stable never change! 5 on 3 off guaranteed
average 80 hrs per month flying.
new aircraft, if that floats your boat.
varied and challenging routes (non precision just about everywhere)
Home every night
Crews are a great bunch of people (they have to be)

against:
mols reign of terror, loose money your out!
days long 5am till 4pm then again next day.
lots of different contracts/pay etc to undermine crews

Thats the way i see it, I dont work for them but do share a house with crew so first hand info. For what its worth I think the brookfield contract pay with the 5 on 5 off roster is one of the most lucrative, if your prepared to travel.

[GGV]

I'm away at the moment, so cannot check out some recent rumours. But the news coming throught the rumour network are of continuous and ever more depressing reductions to FR terms and conditions.

While rumoured for a long time, the first management chat about charging for simulator time seems to have started. Almost every day we hear a new story about some fundamental change which someone has had to face (invariably out of the blue, face to face and "take it our leave it").

The bottom line for prospective employees is that you need to factor in a range of definite, probable and possible deductions from your salary that you would not think of if you come from a more conventional operator. Cumulatively these are very significant.

DO NOT WAIT UNTIL YOU HAVE SPENT MONEY OR MADE A COMMITMENT BEFORE ASKING WHAT YOUR CONTRACTED TERMS AND CONDITIONS OF EMPLOYMENT WILL BE. There will be great resistance to providing you with clarity, even a refusal. But one thing is clear, if you cannot get clarity at the outset, you certainly will not get it when you are in their grip!

The corporate culture issue is not exaggerated in the various FR discussions in this and other forums. It is an issue to think hard about.

[flaps to 60]

My answer would be NO.

Unless you happy to point your chocolate starfish in MOL's direction and say "Oi Poke this until I die", then definitely no, NO F:mad: G way.

I know many FR guys and the Moral is low, Esteem is low, Happiness is low and for the first 6 months your salary is low.

But......AA717 and Duck-U have good points but my answer would still be no to FR.

eijk you have made the right decision stay away and you time will come.

Good luck

[pipo the clown]

For every company that makes you pay for your typerating (and the rest) I have a general say:

NO BUCKS, NO BUCK ROGERS !

(from the movie the Right Stuff)

Thank you.

[emergency descent]

i also do have the possibility to leave my permanent position to join ryanair via brookfield.
i did a lot of calculations the last weeks to find out if it´s worth it.
i think the first 1,5 years, i would even loose some money because i would have to pay a rating on the 737 and dont earn anymore money during that time.
on the other side if i look a few years ahead, the salery on a brookfield contract would be much better.
but this is only of real interest for me, if i dont have to pay anymore taxes or almost no taxes.

so i´m interestet, in which countrys other contract pilots have their official permanent residence, and how much taxes they have to pay.
does anyone know, how long it would approx. take, to become cpt. if I join as a JAR 25 F/O with about 3000 h. airline time?
thanx in advance.

[unwiseowl]

I think it's well understood that those joining today will be offered a command with far less money than current captains.

[Dani]

The brookfield's contract states very clear how much you earn. The payment of taxes is also very flexible - PM me if you need details. I was offered a job as CMD (under the condition that I pass the assessment of course). I had nearly no jet hours, but 4000 hrs on big turboprops. I had to turn down the offer, mostly because of what's happening in this company and because you have no real home base.

[GGV]

Dani, Dani, Dani .... be careful .... read the contributions on the various Ryanair threads. If you pay for anything up front, the chances of the contract you expect appearing is close to zero. You never see the real contract until they have you in their grip and you have debts.

In any case, enforcing a Ryanair contract is not easy. Think about all the people who, for example, lost around £1,000 per month because an arbitrary change to pensions was made without negotiation. What the contract said was irrelevant. What Ryanair did was very relevant.

[Dani]

GGV, that may be true and I do not have enough insight information about Ryanair to talk as an expert on this thread. But I was under the impression that if you are a contract pilot you do not get the contract from Ryan Air but from the contracter, e.g. Brookfield. I would not have any pension, my only salary would be the pay by the hour. Do you have reasons to believe that they could change this rate on the run? Brookfields contract goes for 5 years.

[GGV]

Dani, I understand what you are saying about the contract. I will need to check again, which might take a few days. But I can tell you that I have spoken to a contract co-pilot within the last three months who passed the command assessment but found that all aspects of his contract - days off, pay, base, etc. were to be changed when he was offered his command. (I will make no more comment on this as I do not want to all this individual to be identified).

All the evidence suggests that if you do not have a clear contract - or written agreement - IN ADVANCE that things will change afterwards. If you get yourself into debt to pay for the rating, it is a certainty that they will then feel you are trapped and will change your expected employment terms. Whether they do this through the agency or directly will not matter if they believe you have no choice but to accept!

On the other hand, I think it has been agreed elsewhere that the most reliable contracts at the moment are for those pilots coming through agencies. I am really saying that you need to be very careful as the usual rules of behaviour certainly cannot be assumed to apply in FR.

[Van Der Vecken]

Someone I know very well has been "taken over" by Ryanair and is about to have this company close under him after 25 or so years with the previous company - Now it's the well-reported £50 on-line etc to apply for a non-permanent (maybe) probationary job anywhere in Europe (possibly) and bonded to the training for an aircraft he already has on his licence.

This guy used to be the happiest, most positive, cheerful pilot I have ever met - and now, after nearly 2 years in the Ryanair empire he is utterly and totally disillusioned, not to say depressed - and would give up flying tomorrow.

To have changed this guy from what he was to what he is now takes an exceptionally special breed of management. I would suggest a really long think about it before joining him in misery.

[B737NG]

Just a short and clear NO not worth.

[bacardi walla]

As a previous post mentioned, I too have seen a whole bunch of professional, highly motivated individuals reduced to virtually nothing over the term they have been shrouded by this Irish low cost airline.

One chap, with over 18000hrs on his ticket is close to quitting the industry early. Retirement looms in about 4 years but the treatment he has received while under the threats of this Irish loco has demolished his self asteem, confidence and ability to focus on the future on occassions. Rest assured, he's a safe operator but this is an example of the effects of the way he gets treated.

Questions :-
Why do managers at this loco find it necessary to shout abuse at their employees, down the phone and to their faces, when they don't get the answer they are looking for?

Why are cabin crew frightened to head from the Buzz operation back to the mainline side ?

Why have the Buzz staff not been told what is happening to their fleet (and jobs) at the end of October? What happened to the 3 months notice period that pilots are entitled to receive?

Answer :-
Irish loco power struggle + mind games = destroyed staff

I feel very sorry for anyone who continues to work for them. Escape while your sanity is intact.

[Mach trim]

1) Is there a Ryanair pilot/ Brookfield out there who could post something positive about working for Ryanair and would say to another pilot yes, go ahead work here but... ?

I realize it is bad at Stanstead but what about Girona ? Is it as bad at the Ryanair outstations ?

In my limited experience when a Captain does his job there is no reason he has to put up with abuse ( now that there are other jobs out there ). Speaking in general terms and from experience.


If it as bad as people say then perhaps the CAA and IAA are not doing their jobs ?

Havent we sown our own seeds by paying for type ratings ? I have suffered by declining to pay for one in the past but it was a question of pride for me.

Does paying for type ratings come down to ones personal pride and economic circumstances ?

If we agree to do something we should not complain about it after. The time to say no is right there,at that moment ? If you have a domineering Captain you have the responsibility to your passengers to say " No " If you think he is doing something unsafe and it has not been briefed.


Could someone please explain the labour laws in England/ Ireland ?

Smart business people do not want the liability of firing people without just cause.

Let´s face it there are other dictatorial types in this industry and the only way to deal with them is with brass balls, be real men stick together and perhaps lager.

Do you know what I mean by brass balls ?

But I do not know the full story because I do not work there ....

The problem is we fly for free we only get paid for the paperwork.

[Emergency_Turn_!!!]

Mach trim,

you may have to start with a contract with no assigned base. This is a flexible situation as you will be rostered (and told that it is legal) to work out of different airports with positioning being accounted for or considered as rest time.
As soon as you start an enquiry about a fixed base you will face the music. It will not be the base you dreamed of and you will be forced to accept a serious drop in your monthly gratifications (about 15%) as well as increase in the scheduled days as you will have to provide unpaid standby at the base of their choice.

Abuse is a standard situation you will have to face however your performance is....

The CAA has no right to review or investigate internal issues...it is an Irish Airline...

The often named person sitting in STN and holding the strings has mentioned more than once that a contract pilot does not need to be sacked....he/she will simply not be rostered anymore.

Since the introduction of the self-sponsored route into a contract with any of the agencies acting for RyanAir for several pilots the aforementioned procedure became fact.

[Aloue]

I actually asked the IALPA Ryanair Rep about the IAA and CAA. He told me that they only work via the IAA and while reports get to IALPA very few pilots are willing to allow their name to be used in making a complaint/report. Without names, details, etc. the IAA will accept a complaint from IALPA, but will not act upon it! IALPA says that the IAA will pursue any report that comes their way provided that there is supporting information. He said that this is an advance from the IAA not being willing to talk to IALPA about Ryanair. Hmmmm..…

Mach trim, you ask about the bases. They vary. Old hands will just point out that if they are happy this just means that it is only a matter of time before trouble arrives. All the evidence supports such pessimism. You seem to feel that captains don't have to put up with abuse. But that is no different to co-pilots really, is it not? Nobody has to.... but why join an airline just to make a stand on principle and lose your job?

The issue of type ratings is not really one of principle, it is just a fact that there will always be somebody out there willing to pay. Which is why they do it, will continue to do it, and why it will shortly become the norm in the aviation business. It will not take too long to know if I am right about this - less that 3-5 years is my forecast for new F/Os.

[SpectreLover]

Ryanair is NOT worth it.

I would characterise the pilot jobs at Ryanair, as the BETA version of a pilots job. It looks like a job, but it is not.

Let me explain...

It all comes down to:

1. Is it a job?

2. or is it not a job, e.g. a hobby, lifestyle, etc.?

What is a job... A job is generally characterised to be a stable condition where you use your prof. skills to earn an income. Allowing you to save for a pension and time for your private life. You are a member of a team, and you are respected as such - both as a person, and as an employee. You are ofcourse employed via a direct hire contract, showing your employers interest in you.

A position offered via an agency (because Ryanair won't touch you) with low wages (when you correct for tax, selffunded typeratings, selfsponsored nightstops and transportation, uniforms etc.) and a generally poor lifestyle - which is killing your private life as well as your prof. life - is not a job, but a hobby, lifestyle - or.... it's what you need to do, to get the hours to be able to qualify for a real job.

Consider it as such. Do the math, find out if you need and can afford to be employed by Ryanair, financially and personally. If the answer is yes, then sign one of their s-h-i-t-t-y contracts.

[Benzin]

SpectreLover-

My plan for September - 93 hours , 14 days flying , 12 days off , 4 SBY's .
I will be at home with my family every day , the latest arrival hopefully will be 23.30 local et c. Even if I am asked to go to any meetings I won't go to any of them .
I am RYR Captain . Tell me how your life stile is better than mine if I like flying and I spend at home at least 14 full days every month .:suspect:

[SpectreLover]

Aloue, this is not worth a discussion about my lifestyle vs. yours.

If you are happy with things, I am glad on your behalf.

My post was directed to pilots thinking about joining Ryanair, or those types of companies. The headline for this discussion is: "Is Ryanair worth it?" - and I think not.

You are a captain with Ryanair, and since you are home every night, you are probably on the fixed base contract or have been lucky with your various base contract this month.

This is NOT the reality for many pilots with Ryanair, and most new pilots coming to Ryanair.

They are offered a contract via a contract agency (legally separating the employee from FR) to join with 65 Euro per block hour, and have to pay for their own hotel, transportation, uniform etc. They are not given a base, and have not got any job security what so ever. They even have to pay for their type rating, if they dont have this when joining.

If production goes down, or Ryanair does not like them anymore (not coming to BS meetings with MOL) - they are simply not scheduled to fly anymore.

Thats why I think that Ryanair is not worth it if you are thinking about joining them in order to get a job. However, as I said, if you are new and you need some fast turbojet hours - it might be worth a try.

[Benzin]

SpectreLover-

Thank you for your reply . I think the answer can be given only by Contract Captains . The majority of them are not desperate people . Yesterday I spoke to guy who is very happy about operating from different bases . That all depends . He has flown for twenty or more years all around the world and would be easily accepted by some other airline .

Good luck anyway! Unfortunately 80% of info here is too far from reality .

[atse]

Benzin, there are many, many realities in Ryanair. If you are really a Ryanair pilot you must be very isolated if you believe that what is said here is "far from reality".

After all, even "the" block hour figure for contract captains quoted by SpectreLover varies quite considerably, depending upon what contract you enjoy. (I know somebody who gets a LOT more).

But that does not make 80% of what is written here wrong. It just means that it does not apply to you and that you feel quite happy and secure in your little world. You are welcome to take that approach if you want, but to deny the realities that are around you AND be so self-satisified is a bit much.

So here is my challenge to you: please tell us what has been written here that it is misleading for potential new Ryanair pilots (not just contract pilots, who enjoy the best terms).

[Benzin]

atse-

You can challenge yourself . I have enough challenges in my life .

"Abuse is a standard situation you will have to face however your performance is....:

Nobody has abused me in four years .
So my small world is probably different from yours .

There is nothing to talk about .

[atse]

Benzin -

I take that response to mean that you are not prepared to offer evidence to support your claim, but do want to assert that you are quite satisfied with yourself. You are more than welcome to do so.

But if you make claims here you should be prepared to justify them. This is especially the case if you call the claims made by others into question - which is just what you did.

[eijk1234]

Good replies from all. Just amazes me what differences there are in the company. One guy is very happy and is 14 days a month of and all days at home. The other is 10 days of and has to sleep 10 days a month in some sleezy hotel, for he cannot afford more.

Mean time the king on the throne in Ireland has created nice split in the pilots mutual will power to stand up for themselfs. I guess the old divide and rule principle.

In the newspaper one month ago:

two ryanair pilots were fired (or are not scheduled in any more), for jumping in the toilet of a plane. Now I am not suggesting this is acceptable but if ryanair wants these guys to sort out ther own travel to the base they want them to be, and they suggest to do that jumping with ryanair (for a positioning ticket will fall under duty time, jumping not), they will play it like that. When they get in trouble, ofcourse ryanair doesn´t give a rats ass. But if they have do go jumping in a toilet like this to save the day..... well..... Those bad bad pilots.

Again, I don´t approve of jumping in a toilet, but Ryanair chiefs are creating this situation themselfs, and then blame it on the pilots who are just trying to make a living.

Cheers guys

[Yorky Towers]

By the sounds of this thread, and many others regarding the above Company, the answer has gotta be no...

[FlyingIrishman]

eijk1234,

Before you post such utter BS please try go get your facts right:

a) the people in question were cabin crew coming back from a HOLIDAY and were on standby tickets and the flight was full
b) the captain of that flight let them on the flight even though it meant they had to sit in the toilet
c) the parties involved are no longer with the company

Don't go looking fot trouble when there isn't any! I know FR isn't the perfect company but it also has a lot of good points still even though conditions have gone to pieces.

[eijk1234]

Point taken Irishman, as ones again I believed the rumours which appear to be not based on the facts.

Thanks for getting the first hand info to me and showing me the right story. Sorry!

[You Gimboid]

I fly for a rival loco at Liverpool (no prizes for guessing which one!) and I am quite interested in Ryanair's new base.

Is there a waiting list or priority list for moving to LPL? Are there any FR pilots out there who know?

Also, do you think its in my interests to move? After all, I already have a punishing roster, long hours and unsympathetic management - I could do with the extra £1000 a month doing it for FR.

Any Ryanair guys out there like to comment?

[Ms. Turret (Ozi)]

If you're considering working for Ryanair, the most important prerequisite is the maturity to see it for what it is. A wildly successful airline, the most profitable on earth by quite a long way, and a company that works people hard and pays them VERY well and on time. The company is run by an evil genius accountant who sees the world before him, I think, in terms of assets and liabilities. One of the most malignant of the latter is unionisation, and not surprisingly it is strenuously resisted. The latest back-door shenanigans of Balpa is the REPA nonsense. One cursory look at their website will reveal how completely underwhelming the project is. A real credit to under achievement.

I'm a Brookfield's contract Captain, have been for over a year. I fly my arse off, live somewhere very nice, sleep in my own bed every night, and earn a load of cash. Up to you, but I think the Ryanair deal is a good one. I find that I sleep very well indeed working for a company with twelve hundred and fifty millions €uros in the bank. If you need all the touchy-feely stuff, probably better off looking elsewhere and hoping your company survives. If you like the idea of flying brand new glass cockpit Boeings with plenty of variety and wads of money though, come on over.

Oh, and for those of you with some kind of weird moral objection to paying for your own professional qualifications, I recovered the cost of my type endorsement in 12 weeks, lads!

[the grim repa]

good on ya blue!
we need a lot more of you guys up here,telling the truth.
you just look out for yourself and don't heed any of those guys trying to talk you into respecting your fellow pilots.those bunch of bums deserve all they get.you just take the money and get yourself plenty of rest in that bed of yours at night.
if that crappy union gets you better terms or conditions,or if you need help in a crisis,i look forward to you writing in and refusing the better deal or help.
you really are one top guy.
i never paid for my many ratings and i recovered the cost immediately.

sleep well you ozi toss-pot.didn't do a bit of work for ansett at any time?

[Easy Glider]

Nice one mate !!

[Ms. Turret (Ozi)]

Howdy Grim,

Niceness is such a virtue, don't you think? I deduce from your schoolboy outburst that you might disagree with my point of view. The thread, in case you've forgotten, is whether Ryanair is worth it or not. In my opinion, based on experience, is that yes it most certainly is.

I'm sorry your experience of the company is different.....do you in fact work for the Ryan's, or are you just a sad, grumpy little twerp who derives some kind of sick pleasure in hurling abuse for the sake of it?

Unions, sonny, are not about better T's and C's, they're about the maintenance and expansion of power, that great old discredited chestnut fresh from the pages of Das Kapital. If you think differently, I suggest you stop being the turgid, screeching howler monkey your bluster suggests you are, and have a better look at the world of airline flying and damage inflicted on it by unions over the years.

I did mention that maturity to see Ryanair for what it is was an important prerequisite for anyone thinking of joining. Seems clear, Grim, that you're woefully under qualified in that department. Good luck, sounds like you'll need it.

[Maxiumus]

Interesting management point of view there Ms Turret. I confess I shall lie awake tonight trying to think which manager wrote that missive.

Although if indeed, and I find this unlikely, you are a pilot, maybe you should ask yourself why the vast majority of your colleagues disagree with you. And you might also like to ask why, after years of being ambivalent towards unions, we are all flocking to join?
You say maturity is a prerequisite, I suggest that willingness to see your livlihood and profession attacked continually and to watch your ts and cs continually erode, and do nothing about it, is a sign of stupidity, not maturity.

[Ms. Turret (Ozi)]

Hi Maximus,

Not a management point of view, its mine. And if by "vast majority of your colleagues disagree with you", you mean the few disgruntled whingers who like to post their so-called complaints here, then I suggest you need a basic lesson in maths.

Ryanair has over 800 pilots. Its inevitable that some will complain, but then its always the same whiney voices, isn't it Max, and usually with the same hollow pleas.

Coffee this, water that, jump seat back from East Midlands, yarda yarda yarda. The fact is, Ryanair Captain's both contractors and those with permanent Ryanair contracts are among the highest paid in Europe, if not the world. The reason why this is so, is that we have the great good fortune to work for a highly profitable airline. Sure, beginning F/O's are on a rough deal to start with, but it doesn't last long. Anyway, what industry doesn't have a probationary period? If you stick it out through the first hard bit, though, you have a great career with excellent potential for command, more rapidly than any other company I yet know about.

Permanent senior UK based F/O's take home between 3 and 4 thousand quid in their hands every month, Captains between 5 and 6. Frankly, at these rates, I don't mind filling my own water bottle and bringing a jar of Nescafé to work with me. Sounds like you do, though, and I'm sorry for you. It's just that its never struck me as that big a deal.

[You Gimboid]

OK thanks for the replies but Ozi I don't want to be a contract pilot. You guys are happy to take the money but aren't too bothered about long-term employment or conditions. I was asking the current Ryanair pilots if they would recommend switching from EZY to Ryanair, but I agree the pay is the main attraction at this moment.

I am an existing Balpa member for a very good reason - I am a specialist in a closed employment market. If I couldn't fly I couldn't earn £45000 a year unless I went into business for myself. Without union representation there are several other "evil genius accountants" out there who would love to separate me from my good salary as a UK pilot. Highly-paid specialists need strong unionisation, otherwise they might as well kiss their comfortable lives goodbye.

O'Leary calls it the British Airways Low Pay Association, but BALPA / REPA are the very agents MOL fears as they presume to take away his despotic powers over a large and very necessary chunk of his personnel.

Contract pilots with the same mercenary attitude as his Highness are going to be a very essential part of the scene in the future I think.

[Maxiumus]

Ms Turret, you and i both know the "disgruntled whiners" on prune are merely the tip of the iceberg.
I can assure you, You Gimboid, that the prevalent attitude amongst the vast majority of the permanent lads is major disgruntlement and anger. Ms Turret is trivialising the issues as coffee and water; it goes of course way beyond this to such somewhat more important issues such as the viability of long term lucrative employment, commensurate with the professionalism required, without the constant worry of kickings in the teeth and other shaftings. As a contractor, this appears not to worry Ms turret, however as a potential permanent pilot, it should worry you a lot. Your comments are quite accurate in all respects about BALPA/REPA. Ryanair pilots are not joining for fun.

[Ms. Turret (Ozi)]

Hi Max,

Nope, I don't know very well. I've worked out of every base except Dublin and the vast majority (to use your words) are quite contented campers. So, either you're formulating your views based on what you see in Dublin, for which I cannot speak, or you're allowing yourself to be adversely influenced by a few vocal malcontents who huff and puff with what they presume to be righteous indignation.

Now, as for the essence of your complaint.
such somewhat more important issues such as the viability of long term lucrative employment, commensurate with the professionalism required
Long term lucrative employment? Give me a break! Ryanair is the most profitable airline on the planet...by a long stretch, as it happens...how much more viable to you want? Commensurate with the whatnow? What is it you want, exactly, Max? Chauffeur driven to work, company funded BJ while you sign in? Perhaps reclining on an enormous cushion in the crewroom whilst being fanned by a swarthy native wielding a vast palm frond?

Wake up and smell the bananas, Max. I take the view that I am a small, though important, cog in a vast machine. I work hard, for which I am paid VERY well, and on time. Perhaps you've not known the special pleasure that comes from working for failing companies, or from having to call the boss after your pay is a week overdue. If so, you're a lucky man in one sense, but deprived in another because, quite obviously, you have no idea how lucky you are.