No More PPL I/R... JAR I/R Help Please

[Wibbly P]

You may or may not know, but the National PPL I/R exams finish this November, that's fact. The CAA will not be extending these exams, that's fine, problem being there will be no option for PPL holders who don't want to do 650 hours of JAA ATPL groundschool to get an I/R.

There are currently no training providers offering JAR I/R theory, probably because they've got their hands full doing the new JAR ATPL theory also it's not going to have that much demand.

The CAA are able to generate the exam papers for the I/R theory, but there isn't anywhere approved to get the theory done. BUT the CAA are prepared to assess any proposal by a training organisation who cam put together a course of training for the I/R exams ( the sylabus is in JAR-FCL1). They may not get a full approval but the CAA might, under the circumstances allow an interim acceptance of the proposed training plan to allow PPL holders to get an I/R.

Does anyone works at a school know whether their facility would be able to put together a package on a one off basis?

Many thanks for your help

[ 18 July 2001: Message edited by: Wibbly P ]

[IFollowRoads]

I had a similar problem last year, and having spoken with PAT in Bouremouth, they put me in touch with PPSC and a nice gentleman at the CAA. The latter sent me an e-mail that was sufficient to enrol on the PPL/IR course with PPSC.

You might well find it worth joining the PPL/IR Europe group - they are aware and are chasing solutions for these problems - www.pplir.org (http://www.pplir.org)

Have fun - get your audiogram done first, then the theory, and then the flight training, assuming you want to minimise the cost if things aren't going to work out!

hth

[edited for rubber fingers]

[ 18 July 2001: Message edited by: IFollowRoads ]

[Wibbly P]

Thanks IFR,

I had a look at the website, but unfortunately, The info seems to suggest someone can undertake PPL I/R training under the National Regulations, which I have found out, is incorrect.

The JAR I/R Theory is the only route a PPL holder can take to gain an I/R, The only two National PPL I/R providers are not taking any further candidates, quite rightly because there will only be (being that it is a minimum 3 month course) only the November exams available.

I think that provision should be made for the PPL holders to be able to undertake the I/R, however unless a Training school can put together a course under the JAR regulations, there will be a period where it is not possible to get an I.R on your PPL without undertaking the full group of ATPL exams.

My original post still applies, do any of you know of a training provider who may be prepared to propose a JAR I.R Theory course?

Again, thanks for your help.

WP

[ 27 July 2001: Message edited by: Wibbly P ]

[Receding_Airline]

Perhaps if sufficient people registered a genuine interest PPSC or London Guildhall (the previous training providers) could be tempted into the considerable investment required to get course approval. Has anybody actually asked either of them what their intentions are?

[RVR800]

The handful of people in the UK doing
the PPL/IR seems destined to evaporate
altogether

In effect JAA policy is to discourage
PPLs who want IRs.

Businessmen with PPLs will continue to operate November reg aircraft in JAR countries to operate IFR in accordance
with international law

I cant say I blame them..

[tacpot]

I'm keen on doing a JAA IR next summer, so this thread is interest to me - it seems that all the ground training schools are so overrun with JAA-related changes for the ATPL & CPL, that the PPL/IR situation looks as though it will remain a problem until at least then.

It strikes me that IFollowRoads has the right idea - a training school will only put the effort into producing a course if there is a real market for it. We have to demonstrate that there is a viable market for the course. PPRune's not the best place for capturing this sort of inforamtion - perhaps the PPLIR group's web site is.

I'm going to get in touch with the group to see if they would be willing to do the web-site development to host a list of people interested in the course. If I get anywhere, I'll update PPrune.

tacpot out

[Hicks]

Which brings us nicely to the required hours of flight time.
I am currently doing the PPSC distance course under the 'old' system (The CAA syllabus with exams ending in November), primarily because I want to take advantage of the reduction in training hours for holding an IMC rating.
One of the many questions that I have is that of total flight time for the I/R. What are the rules now?
In the information that was sent out with the PPSC books it is a total of 200 hours including 50h cross country etc. The flying school next door appears to be unable to say what is required.
To add to the confusion the CAA policy update mentions a requirement of 50 hours PIC cross country when applying for an I/R. It does of course say at the very beginning that the policy update is only a brief summary of what is stated in CAP53. I thought CAP53 is oudated now and does not get updated anymore now that we have JARs.....
I am confused. So maybe some of you guys are in a position to give some advice?

Thanks in advance!

Arnie

[Wibbly P]

Hicks,

Assuming the following:
You hold a UK PPL(A) (Not JAR)
A Night Rating
A valid IMC
and have completed (or will complete) the National PPL I/R exams.

The approved training course would be:
55 hours for a ME I/R (A)
50 hours for a SE I/R (A)
This can be reduced by 12 hours for holding a valid IMC

In this case the only experience requirements for the issue of an IR as per JAR-FCL 1.190 (subpart E) are at least 50 hours cross-country flight time as pilot in command.

If this sounds like what you are doing, the following will be irrelevant. The requirements that you mention seem to apply to being exempt from undergoing approved training in which case you would be required to have:

700 Hours total
(at least 600 when starting the course, 700 before it can be endorsed)

Including
200 Hours PIC (of which 100 can be PIC/US)
50 Hours PIC or PIC/US Cross country
10 Hours Night (at least 5 PIC)
40 Hours by sole reference to instruments

I hope this answers your question

WP

[Hicks]

WP,

THANK YOU!

This is exactly the information I was looking for and unlike the last 50 pages of Air Law that I have read last night yours is in plain english!

I am doing the first part so 50hrs PIC XCountry (which I have) is all I need in terms of flight time.

Very good :)


Arnie

P.S.
WP, would you mind writing the Policy Updates for the CAA? They might be a little clearer then :D

[ 24 July 2001: Message edited by: Hicks ]

[Cahlibahn]

Wibbly P, would this scenario work pro tempore for initial issue of a PPL/IR?

Complete a German theory course and pass the German exam (available in English) but do the flight training and test in the UK.

[Wibbly P]

Cahlibahn

JAR FCL requires that all training for a rating be it an I/R or otherwise is completed under the auspices of a JAR approved FTO (Flight Training Organisation) or TRTO (Type Rating Training Organisation). Germany is not, as yet an approved JAR member state, therefore the training would not be accepted by the UK CAA.

If training were to be completed under the national arrangments of a JAR Member state other than the UK (Denmark, Iceland, Netherlands, France, Spain, Belgium, Switzerland, Sweden or Finland) then prior to undertaking the course you would be required to contact the UK CAA with full details of what the course entailed, to find out whether or not the training would be accepted.

WP

[Cahlibahn]

Damn. OK then, how about Switzerland (whose exams are in 4 languages including English)? Would the CAA be likely to approve the Swiss national theory exams as acceptable?

Didn't know Finland was now accepted as having fully implemented JAR-FCL. Lucky them :p

[ 25 July 2001: Message edited by: Cahlibahn ]

[Wibbly P]

Cahlibahn

Couldn't say how likely it is that the UK CAA would accept the current arrangments that the Swiss are using but the current arrangment in the UK is:

UK National I/R Theory Training/Exams
UK JAR I/R Flight Training

This would result in the issue of a JAR I/R

Now as you may have read earlier in this thread, you can no longer enter into the UK National I/R theory training, however, If you could get in writing from the Swiss CAA a letter confirming their current arrangments, which may be:

Swiss National I/R Theory Training/Exams
Swiss JAR I/R Flight Training

For the Issue of a JAR I/R

Then the UK CAA, on application in writing to the Policy section, may well accept this training for the issue of a JAR I/R onto your UK PPL.

How easy would it be to get this letter from the Swiss..... I wouldn't like to say.

However I don't imagine you would get the 12 hour reduction for holding an IMC if you complete the flight training in Switzerland!!

WP

[ 25 July 2001: Message edited by: Wibbly P ]

[JP5A]

Is a class 1 medical reqd.,besides the audiogram,for the I.R.???

[Wibbly P]

JP5A

Pre Course requirements for the issue of an I/R (A):

PPL (A) with Night rating or CPL (A)

Valid FRTOL (RT Licence)

JAR Class 1 OR Jar Class 2 with Audiogram (For PPL (A) Holders)

50 hours cross-country as PIC of Aeroplanes or Helicopters

At least 10 hours of which must be as PIC of Aeroplanes

WP

[ 25 July 2001: Message edited by: Wibbly P ]