Dubai departures/delays

[Coastrider26]

Couple of days ago we stood at the holding point (B190) for over 35 minutes. Being number 8 in sequence because the APP ATCO wanted only jets departing behind each other (understandable but even at EGLL they'll managed to handle turboprops in between).

Isn't there a possibility you guys assign us a lower intitial altitude on departure maintaining own terrain separation and give us stepped climbs instead of having us burn fuel on the ground.

Or inform us so we can decide if we want to taxi out or just start up one engine for the airconditioning instead of 2.

Coastrider26

[EuroATC]

I totally agree stuff like that is unacceptable.. All the controller had to do is release you for take off and a turn 30 degrees off centreline to permit faster jet climbing behind. They don't understand the concept of initial separation.. this comes from a mate of mine who worked in Dubai. You cannot use DUBAI and Expeditious in the same sentence.

[ferris]

I'm ready to be corrected, but I think you are talking about the night of the 3rd when LVPs were required? If so, then all departures were held on the ground to allow the limited number of movements allowed on the aerodrome to be used by arrivals, which were stacking up and running out of fuel. I'm sure a DXB controller will respond shortly.

[White Knight]

Well Ferris, from a pilots point of view then yes, there are departure delays out of Dubai every single morning!!!! Due to congestion on the outbound taxiways and at the threshold, a lot of aircraft are being held on stand and incurring delays. And that's when it's CAVOK......... As for LVP's!!!
Why there has to be such a gap between departures I don't know.

[Fox3snapshot]

Well let us address a few little hard facts here....

1. The local airline hubs from Dubai, it is expanding at an inconceivable rate;

2. Dubai promotes all for one, one for all! come and use our airfield ! with an open skies policy and cheap fuel the whole world is turning up.....especially the European charters in summer, name a country and I will name you an airline that comes here!

3. All the Gulf States.....and I mean all! have decided that it would be cool to have the best airlines in the region lets match every service that the other provides which has seen an unprecedented growth or the industry in this region which has not been absorbed by the infrastructure;

4. Not only have all the Sheikdoms and countries in the Middle East decided that having their own airlines is very prestigious and profitable but hey, lets make our airfields the hub of the world!

5. In the pieces of airspace that combined are adjacent to Iran, Pakistan, Iraq, Bahrain, Qatar, Oman, Yemen, India, Saudi, Syria and Kuwait how do you think conformal procedures and smooth co-ordination will be conducted when half of them are at war, have been at war or might be at war with each other!

Hot tip, big picture stuff, things are only going to get worse unless some serious dialog is entered into between the States (not the US by the way!) to resolve airspace, airway and procedure issues.

:hmm:

[GLOC]

Just out of interests sake, while you were taxiing out for the the "morning rush" (ie. the local company launching all of the forever expanding fleet at the same time!) what are most of the company colours of the frames ahead of you at the hold point?????

:ugh:

Last time I transited through on a ferry flight I was quite impessed with the stupidity of the scheduling, if you are going to hub.........make sure the hub has wheels that will turn!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:suspect:

[ferris]

I was hoping someone from DXB would jump in. In the interim;Due to congestion on the outbound taxiways and at the threshold, a lot of aircraft are being held on stand and incurring delays So are you answering your own question ie; the delays are because your company CHOOSES to launch many aircraft simultaneously, or are you saying the gap between departures is causing the congestion on the taxiways? The departure gap is a product of 1. wake turbulence and 2. there are only two routes westward- Iran or Bahrain, and your company CHOOSES to launch all of you one way or the other. There is no splay of departure options (as elsewhere), you are all going to be following each other, and will all have to be 10nm apart in a very short time- because that's the standard BAHRAIN USES (you know, where euroATC works). He then probably has to hand you all off to Jeddah on a procedural standard.

Wish I had a dollar for every time I've heard "ATC delay" used to describe a "hubbing delay"/ "scheduling delay"/ "runway capacity delay" / "inescapable physical limitation delay" etc. etc.

Build more runways/get better schedules/organise better procedures with neighboring countries/hire more controllers. Simple really.

In the mean time, here's a tip; GET A LOT MORE TOLERANT. It's only going to get much, much worse in the next 12 months. Happy holding.:hmm:

[EuroATC]

ferris, you want to call me stupid? I am stating my opinion based on 2 things.

1. from a friend who worked in Dubai, actually 2 friends, both are no longer working there

2. sitting in the cockpit (as an observer) waiting for take off clearance, the day I was there, ATC was definitely not provided on a first come first serve basis.

If you want to call someone "STUPID" do it via PM..

And yes our radar standard in Bahrain is 10 miles from UAE. There is also something called level separation. Have you ever used that? Westbound 240,280,300,320,340,360,380,400 can be used.. but I guess you knew that right?

[Fox3snapshot]

10nm??? I'm sorry is that all the routes, or is there a 10 minute standard in there somewhere for about 2 FIR's on!!??

And why don't your friends work in Dubai anymore?

And perhaps when you were sitting in the flight deck you were on the wrong airline for a first come first serve basis....


:ugh:

PS: 30 degrees off runway heading would probably put the aircraft into the Sharjah circuit area which is now a bustling haven for new start ups!

:ouch:

[EuroATC]

fox3

UAE has a requirement to give us 10 miles radar separation except for aircraft routing to waypoint COPPI and BPN where they have to give us 10 minutes at same level. This is a requirement because we have to provide 10 minutes to Jeddah and also have to fit in Damman, Bahrain and Doha departures.

We have to provide 30 miles in trail to all aircraft going to Riyadh FIR, Kuwait FIR except for traffic overflying IRAQ where we have to provide 10 minutes.

The 2 friends I refered to, one is back working in Europe, the other was terminated for being a s*** disturber.

Yes maybe I was in the wrong flight deck but I tell you if Dubai wants to play in the same park as EGLL, LFPG, EDDF, CYYZ, KJFK they will have to learn how to move traffic and make rules that permit that.

30 degrees off course climb for slow aircraft, maybe you're right I don't know how it would affect OMSJ but you mean to tell me that nothing can be done to facilitate slower aircraft to increase the effeciency of the operation?

[White Knight]

Ferris, I don't particularly mind sitting at the hold waiting for my turn to go, and yes I have to agree that it's pretty stupid that our schedulers come up with so many departures at one go:{ :{
However with the advent of RVSM I would have expected things to be a little better:confused:
EuroATC is right when he says that ATC have to maybe learn to accomodate the F-50's of the world, through different (new)SIDs maybe..

[bus canuck]

Yes maybe I was in the wrong flight deck but I tell you if Dubai wants to play in the same park as EGLL, LFPG, EDDF, CYYZ, KJFK they will have to learn how to move traffic and make rules that permit that.

YYZ???

Euro-man, I was with you until you put Tor-anna in there!?:yuk:

IMHO, YYZ is the worst "major" airport I've ever flown into. DXB on a bad day is still MILES better than YYZ. With the exception of a couple of excellent guys, the meanest, nastiest, most beligerent controllers I have ever dealt with have been in Tor-anna...


(KJFK, KBOS, KEWR or KORD are good examples, however)

[masalama]

Coming backto original post, just wondering if 30 directions in use, couldnt ATC get the 1900's off 30R from say N7 and then use vectors to seperate for faster traffic behind???? All Feca departures are headed either Tosna/Balus which is not the case for most EK ...so it's only the initial departure seperation that really matters IMO...of course I'm not ATC so just wondering???????
Hey I wouldnt mind taking off VFR and maintain 1000' over water(OK stop dreaming!!) if I could avoid the 30 minutes on the ground that we currently have to wait some mornings and no not in LVP only.... :E

But gotta give Dubai ATC some credit too, friendliest bunch of guys in the middle east and we know you're trying your best..

Worst ATC in Middle East- Saudi :ouch:

[Coastrider26]

This is the story RWY 30 CAVOK we were told we were number 5 in sequence after these 5 aircraft we were told we were number 5 in sequence once again. This was at 0400 AM LT

If the APP ATCO would have given us an early turn out clearing us to 2.500 ft or similair have the jet behind us fly the complete sid overtaking us bout a mile a minute i guess, there would have been more then a 1.000 ft/min seperation crossing the coast imho.

clearing us to 3.000 would mean we'd also be seperated from the traffic on the ILS.

It was not my intention to "attack" DXB ATC since they're overall doing a good job only once in a while.... I can't figure why certain decisions are made.

Coastrider

[EuroATC]

bus canuck..

Never said guys in Toronto were nice:) They are not :) haha I worked there and i'm not nice either hahaha...

stats wise though, they move alot of traffic (except when on 33's.. then they have to space 5 miles...otherwise it's 3 down the localizer)

[EuroATC]

Purpose of a PM was to not "bore" people on the forum.. you really do lack profesionalism by calling people "stupid" and "moron". For the record I am not bitter, I just don't enjoy double standards. I come from 2 places where everyone (staff) is treated equally.. that is not the case out here. Bahrain is a much better place to work than Abu Dhabi and Dubai..for 3 reasons. We are paid quite a bit more, our housing is leaps and bounds better than what you have and our general manager is a great guy. Not sure where you get your "stories" from but you should verify the accuracy of your information before spouting out comments like that.

Don't talk to me about ignorance, I am not sure if your first language is english or not but you don't seem to be able to read a post. Go back and read coastriders question. He is asking why he is put at the back of the cue behind jets. This has nothing to do with LVP's, we all know that movements are reduced when vis is down.

To conclude, just because there are only 12 props a day as you write, doesn't mean they should get screwed on departure everytime they want to operate. I guess you have worked in UAE too long with all it's mickey mouse rules.

Flame away ladd!

[ferris]

This has nothing to do with LVP's, we all know that movements are reduced when vis is down Really? Then why did you make the statementFirst off, the guys question has nothing to do with being held on the ground because of arrivals. The night in question, vis dropped quite quickly, and ALL pending departures were held on the ground. He did not say he watched a dozen jets go past him- he said he was held at the holding point. Don't make stuff up just to try and make yourself look like you have any idea. I am trying to ascertain if this was his delay, and still haven't got a straight answer, one way or the other.
Please go away- we all know you are leaving and are getting it all out of your system- but we are trying to improve things. What's your motive for posting?

Respect is a reflective thing, you get what you give. It has nothing to do with 'professionalism'. Difficult concepts, I know, but ask someone to help you.

[EuroATC]

you are hopeless, yes i'm glad i'm leaving here, can't wait to get back home. It's good people are trying to improve things, unfortunately you should not be one of those people since you don't have clue. Go work in a real centre and then come see me, until then you are best to keep your narrow minded comments and ideas to yourself.

This thread started with someone asking a question. I merely agreed with coastrider and what do I get? I get personally attacked by someone in the peanut gallery. I really wish I knew who you were, you have me at an unfair advantage since you know who I am. People seem to talk the big talk when behind a username.

[Coastrider26]

Like I said before at the night in question it was CAVOK, so no reasons for LVP\'s whatsoever. We saw about 11 jets come by.

I agree there not that much turboprops around, guess we are so special we need special attention.:D any change direct destination next time???

[Fly Through]

:rolleyes: First of all, Ferris & Euro ATC, easy boys, ya might bust something.

Hey Euro ATC, it's been awhile!!! Lighten up, we've thrashed this all out before and especially because of who you know, you should understand why we have the problems we do. Oh and you're not the only one heading to the big white North in the coming months :ok:

Look guys I've said this loads on these boards, give us a break. Dubai has hugely varying experience levels among its controllers, it's very slowly improving but not enough to cope with the expansion in traffic. We (ATCO's) don't make the rules, not even our management do. We get them written on stone from the great Danish one who sits on high, who has absolutely no relation with the real world what so ever.

As for the airspace and SIDS/STARS: being reviewed at the moment but don't hold your breathe.

Early turn procedures: have been looked at but like all good ideas here, run into a brick wall at GCAA. Can only vector you after passing 2000'. If ya small, try asking for an early turn with your own terrain clearance. APP can only say no.

Gridlock on the ground: Should not still be happening, delays are meant to be at the stand.

One of the problems at DXB is standardisation, all the watches do things differently. Some are slicker than others, some more by numbers. We are trying to correct this but not enough staff to do so. This ain't just a problem in Dubai either, Ferris?

The eternal ATC plea to the heavens comes to mind as well: "WHY MUST YOU ALL WANT TO FLY AT THE SAME TIME?" I know you must but a difference of 5 minutes can make all the difference.

Lastly, let me reitterate what someone said earlier," Why is this happening on pprune?" Isn't time some kind of working group was organised, ATC & users?

Rgds FT

[Coastrider26]

Perhaps we can setup an Pilots/ATC meeting to discuss this kind of things on a thursday night that's when most falcon guys are off.

Perhaps a keg at the Cellar since you guys come there as well.

[ferris]

I have edited some of my posts, on advice from the mods, to remove 'the edge'.
Ok, so I've ascertained from pm's that the LVPs are not the gripe here. Coastrider, if you can organise a get-together (informally or otherwise), I'm sure a lot of things would be clearer. Your idea of levelling off is only OK if you can get far enough from the field for whoever is doing the releases to get the next guy above you. Some of the climb-out rates have to be seen to be believed in summer. It would actually be better for you to get as high as you can, then fire the jet underneath. A point missed by some pilots is that jets and turbo's will be the same height at the same distance from the field, it's just that the jet gets there quicker.

As mentioned by someone else, changes originating from the floor are not very welcome here (yet). But some of us are trying.

[Cap 56]

The best thing they can do in the UAE, is to build a brand new airport in between Dubai and Abu and invest in larger radar coverage. If needed all the way to India.

In not EK will start to eat it’s own tail. Money can do a lot but not the impossoble.

I will guarantee you today that soon there will be an EK getting short of fuel at his destination. Remember that contingency fuel is there to cover AIRBORNE contingencies and NOT extra taxi fuel.

[Vercingetorix]

Ferris
In a thread some time back about London Heathrow you mentioned that you did not have an approach rating. Do you have an aerodrome rating ?

[ferris]

Yes. Why? Got a job for me?

[tic]

Fly Through and Euro ATC.
Congrats on a job well done with whingeing pilots. What about slot's, in Dubai.? Traffic must warrant it by now.Most controllers are exceptionally accommodating if you JUST ASK them. Am I right? In my opinion the best controllers are the South Africans, Zimbabweans, British and Australians, at least you can understand them. As I heard one night from a MCT controller say to a b-t--ing EK guy, "I have the big picture", AND THEY DEFINATELY DO. That applies on the ground as well. Maybe you shouldn't bite the hand that feeds you.You could end up holding somewhere by some-one who has got very cranky with you.
Sure you can complain, but not a good idea to do it in the aircraft, unless it jeopardises safety. Fuel wise: take extra, we know after a bit of experience when delays are likely VMC or IMC, no excuses there.

[Vercingetorix]

Ferris
Job, nope unless you can fly fast jets.
Just curious ref your knowledge base

[ShooTheGap]

Coastrider,
There used to be a time when some nice tower controller would offer you a convenient turn on course and to remain on his frequency to expedite your departure. Not in the rule book but good safe controlling. Yes the airport is expanding but procedures are not worth operating a regional airport under. A Sid in existence for 3 years now even cancels all subsequent departures as the initial turn creates a reciprocal track. Imagine the slow climber followed by a business jet!!! ouch. 3 years no change!Why have Sid's? Of course you can work around it and turn the first departure but that is not in the procedures either! So when Euro says this is Procedural problems, He is right. There is a thing called Radar seperation and Heavy Heavy is 4 miles. Dubai Is NOT a radar tower and hence uses time seperation. There is also a thing called control transfer of inbound IFR's. Dubai operates as an IMC airport 365 days a year! And the list goes on and on... Hopefully with the new Non Aberdeen trained standards officer, things might change!Next time you sit in the queue, time the departure interval... If you are lucky and get A or D watch, those ladies and gents do move some serious metal... Or at least they did!
Happy flying, I will worry about my simulator from now on...
And Fly through...welcome to the real world, A liitle cold but really nice!!!Congrats!

[Fly Through]

Thanks STG :ok: Already studying the rules for Hockey ready for the next season.

Don't hold your breathe for any change coming soon. The controller technical committee has been trying push lots of procedure changes but has run into a brick wall. Whilst the people in the unit do want to change things, as soon as it comes to the regulator everything grinds to a halt. Maybe the new reorganisation will help but I doubt it as all these new managerial types are not being replaced on the shop floor.

For all our users, we do try our best but what it comes down to is personal responsibility. Just because one controller does one thing and another won't, doesn't mean he/she doesn't want to but they probably are worried about the fallout if something went wrong. Remember this is still a blame culture. If it comes to expedition or covering ones butt, sorry guys you'll have to wait.

[Radar Pete]

Hi all

I am amazed at the inconsistencies written so far, especially from the Dubai guys. With all due respect, how can you talk of having to comply with procedures "forced" on you by the regulator when you openly admit to watches having different standards. Come on guys, what gives. If you comply with procedures, as laid down, surely you should all be working to the same standard?????

If one goes back in history a bit you will find that the current procedures were enforced due to Dubai managment sitting idle. Had Dubai management done what they were supposed to do i.e. work! then none of what has happened transpired. It is a fact that Dubai management fiddled while Rome burnt. They, at the time, had no idea of what to do or how to do it.

I see another posting quering the runway change last Friday night. I was not on shift at the ACC that night but heard from my colleagues that it was an total and utter shambles. How can the ACC plan effectively when no plan exists at Dubai. Dubai has a Co-ord position whose function it is to pre-empt this sort of thing. Get your feet off the console and look at the scope, plan and communicate. Simple really.

And lastly, I am also amazed at how Dubai complains of staff shortages. A typical evening will start with a call "We are short of staff so expect delays." Do the airlines know that the delays experienced are from staff shortages, what is happening to the recent spate of hirings? Methinks to much time is wasted on controller technical committees. One wonders how effectively the contract is being managed in La La Land.

Cheers

[Vercingetorix]

Radar Pete
most interesting.
Ferris, you seem a vociferious chap, any comment for you on this?

[ferris]

Certainly. In the fullness of time. I would love to hear from DXB bods, first. After all, you know the constraints we all work under, Julio

Edited to protect Canadian sensibilities.

[Vercingetorix]

Ferris
miss ident. Name's Julio

[JoeCo]

feris,

Is that your best attempt at professionalism by trying to identify a poster by his/her real name?????? And if it is, ....try and at least get it right!!!! Makes you look silly.

[EuroATC]

It's good to see i'm not the only one who has absolutely no time for Ferris. :)

I keep reading about all these constraints in the UAE/Dubai.. and the dictatorship run by the great dane. Well guys, dictators have been taken down before. Why don't you all get together and grow some ba***. Stand up to this guy and say "no we're not putting up with these ridiculous things anymore". I know many working in UAE worship the ground they walk on for having a job and escaping a bad situation in their home countries.. WELL GUESS WHAT??? The management/great dane know this.. and they take advantage of you... stand up for yourselves and make the ATC work properly and more effeciently.

[ferris]

Vercingetorix. Haha, very funny Julio . Better work on your accent;)
JoeCo; Chill man, Julio and I know each other, and enjoy the sparring. As for you- are you just batting for your Canuck friend? Can't he fight his own battles? What has 'professionalism' got to do with it? As for 'looking silly', well.........

EuroATC. If you have no time for me, ignore my posts, simple really. But you continually mouth off on subjects of which you have no knowledge (by your own admission, I might add). I realise you are counting the days (7 to go, is it?), and are going thru the usual 'venting' before a person leaves, spraying vitriol at everyone and everything in the M.E.. As for naive statements likeWhy don't you all get together and grow some ba***. Stand up to this guy and say "no we're not putting up with these ridiculous things anymore". It's no wonder you don't fit in. You are in the M.E. You cannot transplant YOUR way of thinking into how things are done here. Either adapt, accept it and do your best with what you are given, or resist and break. There is no 'standing up'. Thanks for your 'wisdom', anyway.and they take advantage of you... No matter where you are located in this field, the same applies the world over. It's just a matter of degree. It all depends on how you look at it. When you have switched into negative mode (as you have), then nothing will seem right.

Still waiting to hear from Fly thru et al.
Radar Pete. Questions need to be asked, but is it going to help to get into a slanging match, here?

[Radar Pete]

Ferris

Slanging match? I doubt it, more like facts coming out. I do agree that a better forum is required but always sad for issues to be resolved through forums and committees. Dubai need to sort out their 'standards' issues before getting together.

[ferris]

It is very sad (and an indictment of management) that the most/only discussion between interests happens on pprune.

[EuroATC]

Ferris, not sure where you get the things you say about me. Let me set you straight "mate".

1. I do not mouth off on subjects which I have no knowledge, first off, my initial post on this topic was made from an observation sitting in the cockpit of an aircraft... second, I work right beside you guys and know how you operate...third to add to that I know a few working there in UAE and also have 2 good friends here who used to work in the UAE... Also have 2 friends who worked in Dubai.

2. Sorry to disappoint, I still have 9 shifts to go. I am not venting, I had this point of view 6 months after arriving here. See thing is, I made some suggestions in Bahrain, some were taken and changes have started happening, others were ignored. I understand how it works and I CHOOSE to not continue working here. It's not just "my" way of thinking by the way, most others here know that change is needed and we all agree on what needs to be done.

3. If fitting in is sitting there and being abused and taking crap from above (as you all do in UAE) then ferris you are right, I do not fit in. I don't see how you are qualified to make such a statement since you don't personally know me. Do I fit in operationally? Yes, I checked out and very fast at that, do I fit in socially? I get along better with the locals than most other expats do... I really don't see where you are coming from.

4. Uhh.. yes they do take advantage of you and will continue to do so. You would be amazed what could happen if you all stood together...but of course this won't be possible because you have so many over there that are afraid to rock the boat.

5. And no, the same doesn't apply everywhere... You cannot use ME and anywhere else in the same sentence. I've worked in Europe and North America and it's a totally different ballgame.

If you have kids you'll know what I mean when I say it's pointless to argue with a child. Just last week you went spouting off at me about LVP's when that wasn't even the question on this topic. Now you're spouting off about me not knowing what I am talking about. If you notice, you seem to take a go at everyone on this topic.. maybe it's not everyone else that's wrong.... ever stop to think that you're the one who hasn't a clue what you are talking about. Some food for thought. Well whatever you think, I really don't care.. I have worked here for a while, I know the drill and understand how the game works.

An added note, I was told who you are, we've had it out on the phone line before too. Even one of your fellow countrymen working over on this side said "that guys too nasty to be from ***".

[Vercingetorix]

Ferris
"Julio and I know each other"
wrong.

[ferris]

Vercingetorix. Oh, so you still haven't worked out who I am?:D Keep trying, Julio.

EuroATC. You've insisted on making an ass of yourself, so I'll make it easy for you.
I do not mouth off on subjects which I have no knowledge, first off, my initial post on this topic was made from an observation sitting in the cockpit of an aircraft Do you realise how stupid you sound "I once flew in the cockpit and lalalalala........." From that postAll the controller had to do is release you for take off and a turn 30 degrees off centreline to permit faster jet climbing behind. They don't understand the concept of initial separation Someone else pointed out the restrictions we work under, and what happens if you do things that aren't permitted. I was trying to postulate a reason for the particular night in question, when you just jumped in and started firing from the hip. You then went on to show your ignorance about why LVPs might've been at fault. I am happy to stand by my statement about you spouting off on subjects of which you have no knowledge. DO you know what DXB can and can't do, and why?
I am not venting You need to have a good long look at yourself. Have a read of your own (recent) post history.
See thing is, I made some suggestions in Bahrain, some were taken and changes have started happening, others were ignored. I understand how it works and I CHOOSE to not continue working here So you agree. Bend or break. You have chosen to break.
You would be amazed what could happen if you all stood together. Yes. We'd all be in jail. How naive are you?
And no, the same doesn't apply everywhere When you find that Utopia, let us know. Same $hit, different degrees/day/management.I've worked in Europe and North America Your former colleagues talk in glowing terms of Navcanada:hmm: (or hongkers, or oz, or wherever). Are you just terminally dissatisfied?

OOH yeah, I'm REAL nasty!

Thanks, your input has just been sooooo helpful on this topic. Cup of vitriol, anyone?

[EuroATC]

You then went on to show your ignorance about why LVPs might've been at fault


I never once mentioned why LVP's are at fault.. go read and re read and re read the posts.

The rest.. it's not worth my time.

Enjoy your life in the sand pit hahaha

And for the record.. I didn't leave Toronto or Geneva because I was pissed off at the company.. I left to experience something different.. If I was so angry with Nav Can..why would I go back

[Late Landing]

GROW UP GUYS!!!!
Personal attacks ain't going to solve anything.

Yes things are different in that part of the world, and yes when you have bashed your head against a brick wall for too long, trying to help better the system, you do move away. If you don't you become bitter and blame the woes on others not understanding the bigger picture.

Firstly, the main problem about both the UAE ACC and Dubai APP system is that decisions made by the UAE DCA over-rule those made by the Dubai CAA. Therefore no 'meaningful' discussions take place to better operational standards and procedures.
Secondly, the Service Company do not want to go out on a limb and push for a system that may be better - if they upset the wrong person in their endevours their cash-cow will end.
Thirdly, and this is not meant in a derogatory way to the locals, but they seem to get taken for a ride by any slick talking 'expert'. Hence the supreme power vested in the Dane.

Perhaps things have changed since I left Dubai ATC some 4 years ago, but judging from the moans and gripes, I doubt it.

[Fly Through]

Hey good to see another ACC controller with no effing idea:mad:

If the wind changes and pilots will not accept the landing runway what do you do ? If we'd left it later it would've got worse. By the way when we do give you free flow after holding how about actually vectoring them to the minima required? We lost count of the amount of 15 - 18 nm gaps when we were at 10nm thro' the gates. If we sequenced that badly, you ACC guys would throw your dummies out of the cot!

As for staff shortages, we tell everyone who asks, do emirates know, course they do. We're losing guys a hell of alot faster than we are hiring. Our terms are not what they once were and the only people who come out anymore are people out for a holiday.

As for standardisation, ask Shoot The Gap, it is hard for a controller to knowingly delay people for no good reason. The rules here don't count as a good reason to many. So some watches are better at sticking to the letter to the law and some better at working within it's constraints.

Whilst throwing muck around, lets not forget the customers, especially our favourite local airline, who dawdle on the runway and need telling twice about everything. This by no means goes for all of there pilots but a big chunk. At least you know what you're getting with our east european friends.

FT

[Radar Pete]

Hi FT and a very good day to you.

If I may, just a few observations:

1. Wind changes - quite a factor in our industry, one wonders how the Heathrows, JFK's et al manage through runway changes??? I do have a TWR and APP rating as well. When I worked those disciplines I was well versed in local weather patterns and phenomena (drilled into me during training) to ensure that a runway change (due to wind) was timed effectively. This was done by monitoring various aspects of the METAR and tower observations (local conditions). When 'The Signs' were there we planned a suitable time to swing the RWY in order to have a minimal impact on the traffic.

2. So some watches are better at sticking to the letter to the law and some better at working within it's constraints.

What are you saying here? Some ATC's are good and others are not? IFACTA and many other unions worldwide are bemoaning the fact that ATC's are not treated as professionals and here in one sentence you kill their fight. If we are to be considered professional then we should approach the job as such. Every time there is a thread about Dubai ATC others are blamed. Strange isn't it that mostly all the threads about ATC in the ME is about the service in Dubai.

This should never be a them and us thing, or who is better. Faults lie within all ATS structure. Some need to work harder and more diligently at sorting them out. Yes even Bahrain and Canada have problems as does NATS.

[tonto papadopolous]

Thanks FT for your response to my query on the other post. It seems that this is the post where its all happening so I'll post my opinion here.

A varied wind at 500ft is indeed a valid reason for a runway change, but it doesn't absolve you guys from communicating this as the reason. All the UAE Centre could tell the pilots is that Dubai have asked for widespread holding and haven't provided a reason. The ATIS wasn't updated, and everybody more than 30NM from the aerodrome had no idea what was causing the delay or how long it was going to be. Freq 129.5 was almost blocked for the next 20 minutes with pilots making trivial requests. The easy way to solve this is to change the ATIS and then tell the UAE Centre this, so that they can make a broadcast-- "All stations this freq inbound to Dubai, wind at 500ft is......, new information is available on the ATIS freq, expect a delay of 10 to 15 minutes, standby for holding instructions"

With regards to the spacing being a little bit more than required, okay not ideal, but did this make your job harder? NO. Even with the 15-18NM spacing, you's had some guys doing snake patterns inside the approach airspace. And a couple of times, when the Centre did nail the 10NM, your co-ord rang up at the last minute to ask for 20NM. So the traffic in question had to be put back in the hold!!! And in fairness, there was 10 holding at Desdi at one stage, so the only way to figure out who was who, was to get somebody to squawk ident.

Cheers.

[DIsco FEver]

Been in DXB for a year or so now, ACT is well, variable.

DXB has a 4000M runway, unless the wind is over 10kts of tail, at touchdown then the runway change should be delayed until a quiet time, not at the Midnight or 6am rush. DXB ATC change at the most in-opertune moments.

I know the airspace structure is complex but then so is JFK<LHR<FRA<CDG<FCO<MEL<LAX<ORD in fact most big airports are bloody complex, I think DXB needs a good bloody shake (sheik) up.If EK are going to double in size in the next 5 years alone then god help us all,, Inshallah!!!

Why no seperate delivery freq, dont tell me it's a money thing, not in DXB, never any shortage of money, unless it's for pilots of course....

[Fly Through]

Thanks Radar Pete, is that how you meant to do it? I bow to your vastly greater experience :mad: Glad you were so knowledgable about weather at your previous unit, obviously you aren't around here. In Dubai, when the wind changes it can change in a matter of minutes and completely unpredicted by the Met people (they normally report things after they happen anyway). Sometimes a runway change has to be made even at awkward times, it happens here, it happens everywhere. Occassionally it means holding, tough ****, it happens but it doesn't take much of a tailwind to prompt go arounds.

TP - Hmmmm new digital ATIS, at least we're getting it to give the correct runway at last! The centre were told why holding was necessary, not our fault if it's not passed on. Lousy gaps from the ACC increases the delays to the pilots, I thought that was what we were trying to avoid? Sorry you didn't nail 10nm at all during that period and yes some aircraft were vectored because.......shock, horror we get arrivals from other directions too ya know. Yes occasionally we asked for the odd larger gap, would you prefer a blanket restriction through the gates all the time? How does it screw you up when they are in the hold anyway? I've said before, things would be a lot smoother if we controlled the bottom levels of the hold, like most places in the rest of the world.

quote:
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So some watches are better at sticking to the letter to the law and some better at working within it's constraints.
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Did I say 'break the law'? The rules we work by are full of grey areas where a controller's discretion is involved. Just because there are different solutions to a problem doesn't mean anyone is less proffessional or less able. As controllers, Pete & TP should understand this but alas not in our lifetime:hmm:

The sooner we encourage more liason visits between units & cockpits the better. I've been to the centre, how many centre controllers do we get visiting us in Dubai? Not many. We all need to be working together to improve things and stand up to the tyrannical way procedures are imposed on us.

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

There are examples of good and bad controlling in both UAE Centre and in DXB APP. Sometimes ACC works their butts off to get a nice string of arrivals all spaced 10 NM apart, with no arrivals from the other side, and DXB screws it up royally. Likewise I have seen colleagues (and at times myself) blow out a sequence and give DXB 15NM and the lost 5 NM screws DXB APP over. None of us are perfect.

I can only speak from an ACC point of view and my pet hate, and the area I would concentrate most on improving in DXB is the Coord position. Too many times on certain crews, as an example, you will be on East and you will go to the Coordinator in DXB to ask if its ok to shortcut the guy passing MUSAP inside the guy passing PASOV, only to get a blank "sorry who???", and then a lame "ohhh I'll call you back". Now if the Coordinator does not have his sequence worked out, or at the very least have an idea of who is coming in and when, by this late stage, what hope do we have of running a smooth sequence into DXB. Likewise, some coordinators, call a blanket 20NM between all aircraft, when they only need a selective 20NM between maybe a couple. Now I know this is what they are supposed to do, but it works so well with one crew I know of, when they use selective bigger spacing, and the coordinator actually looks out at their big range and communicates with Area, and takes an active role in sorting out the sequence earlier rather than later.

As far as the original post goes, I agree with the general sentiment, that being that, DXB and the UAE in general (AUH is getting silly now as well), has outgrown the airport capacities, the procedures and definately the ATC staffing levels. It is not the controllers fault as they are trying to keep the system running, but one thing you can all be sure of, if the traffic keeps growing at this rate, and no big changes are made soon, it will all come to a crunching halt.

[Cap 56]

This whole tread can be summarised or even titeled as:

"the consequances of megalomania"

[4HolerPoler]

Cap 56 this thread has been running just fine without your input. Now if your intent is to come in and pontificate conspiracy theory rhetoric from the luxury of your armchair than I shall be obliged to show you the door. If you, on the other hand, feel that you have some constructive input to make then please feel free to contribute. Very simply, I will not allow this thread to be hijacked in the manner in which you contributed to the thread concerning the EK 340 incident in Joburg.

[ferris]

Bring in coordinated flow- NOW.

Otherwise, live with the delays.

[tonto papadopolous]

thanks Fly Through, your humility is refreshing.

Your colleagues in Area, the weathermen, pilots, the regulator, and the unpredictably predictable weather are all conspiring to make your job so difficult. But being a trooper that you are, you make the best of a bad situation.

For the record, when the Co-ord called, his words verbatim- "Hold all traffic", and then he hung up, no reason given, and none sought because of the volume of traffic on freq.

Also for the record, when the discretionary 20 miles was called, the traffic had already departed the hold. I agree that it is better to use the dicretionary 20 miles than the blanket 20 miles, just make sure you use your discretion when using your discretion.

With regards to the exchange program whereby we come and visit eachothers facility, I'd love to but I'm getting some teeth pulled this week. Does next week suit you!!!

[Fly Through]

TP just trying to explain things from our point of view, ya don't want to listen then fine no skin off my nose. ANSA is right we aren't all perfect but we are trying to make the best of a bad situation, one that gets worse all the time. Understanding each others problems can only help things, surely.

At the moment controllers in the UAE live in a culture of fear, incident investigation has all been about apportioning blame and using retraining as a punishment. This means controlling becomes more conservative and inexpeditious, which means even more delays. With recent new appointments this has a chance of changing but it will not happen over night, until it does expect no real improvements.

As for flow, we need it like yesterday but no matter who brings it up we never get anywhere. Our present method is laughable and it is only because of the staff at Dubai & the ACC that we have made it work for so long. The written procedures now no longer reflect what happens in practice so it needs changing, this won't happen until we have more staff. Disco Fever is sadly mistaken, money is a problem, the package for controllers is not enough any more to attract people out here to stay. So we are always running short staffed.

Unless things change more controllers are going to vote with their feet, I'm not the only one who already has.

FT

[Invictus]

IMHO...

It is not fair to expect the ACC or APP controllers to work with the rapid increase in traffic levels at DXB without the input from a computerised tool such as Compass or Meastro.

These tools are designed to take distance (on STAR) and performance into account to achieve a (configured) spacing requirement on final.

The same tool would be used by APP and ACC, and thus there would be little or no room for interpretaion or personal artisic impression.

The tool says slow him down, you slow him down, the tool says hold, you hold ....

But hey that is just MHO.

Invictus

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

Hey Invictus, the computerised flow system would be nice, but even without that what we could do right now is have a dedicated flow position in Dubai, who sits and works out the sequence, and then works back from that sequence the time each aircraft needs to arrive at BUBIN/DESDI/MIADA/MAXMO and passes the time to the relevant controller. Then the relevant controller does whatever they decide is needed to achieve that. The working out of the time would not be hard, as most other APP units around the world do it with no problems so why would it be different here.

Then when the poop hits the fan and we as Area controllers, in possession of the time each aircraft needs to pass the relevant inbound gate, would simply hold each aircraft until such time we could bring them in to meet said time. This would also allow us to tell each aircraft an accurate estimated arrival time, rather than now where, due to us not knowing if you are going to take aircraft from the East or West stack, we have to just guess when they will hold till, which makes the whole thing a farce.

So, someone please tell me reasons why the above system wouldn't work, and why it wouldn't make things run a lot smoother, and in the process remove most of the animosity between Area and App in one hit. Cheers.

[Invictus]

ANSA,

To be absolutely honest, there is no reason (that I can think of) why such a system should not work. I am sure that there will be those that differ or have other valid opinions and suggestions.

Having said that,

I believe that the shortest route to the solution would be if the regulator allowed the UAE and DXB operations managers to sit down together and work it out. That group should have the autonomy to (if necessary) determine new holds, standard routings, procedures, airspace changes etc……. more importantly, they should be allowed to “trial” some concepts on one of the simulators that we have.

Naturally the regulator has the final say, but let’s be honest here, he has not worked aircraft for a very long time, and he should not be permitted to design, approve and implement any and all procedures that he thinks will work without the active participation, in the formative stages, of the UAE and DXB operations management team.

However, the regulator does not appear to trust anyone but Himself, and therefore, a machine that He approves might be acceptable to him. Thus the first course of action I would take would be a sequencing tool.

Invictus