touchy-feely with students

[chicken6]

I was watching a programme called Flying Soldiers a few days ago. It's about Class 354 learning to fly for the British Army, and they want to fly choppers but started on episode 1 in Chipmunks.

Apart from the nerves of sending someone on their first solo in a Chippy in 20G27kt winds, I noticed two things:

1. The instructors were all old. By old I mean not fresh out of school, wings course, Instructor course, go teach. I mean Wings course, go fly for a few years, then teach with authority. That seemed like a Good Idea to me, I wish it could happen more in civvy street.

But I really want to ask about point 2.

2. One of the students was having a bit of trouble with the stall recovery, and the panel-mounted camera showed the instructor reaching over from the back seat and patting him on the shoulders as the instructor reassured him that it would come, he could do it, just needed to be a bit more gentle etc.

This brought to mind a 'situation' I have faced before but was not prepared for which is when the student is genuinely getting close to tears, I could tell that much but didn't know what to do about it. After a talk with the boss (after the flight) he suggested holding their hand on the throttle and going through it together. This lets them know you are there so they feel more comfortable, and it also provides that immediacy of response where you can feel them tense up and get onto it staight away so it doesn't build up to a point where they can't think at all.

My questions are

1. How many of you actually use contact to reassure your students, and when did you start and why? I can think of two situations where I should have but didn't and subsequently lost students from flying, and one where I was told to, did, and it worked out well (she went solo three weeks later) and all I can think of was if I had known for those first two...

2. When training instructors, when do you let them know (if ever) that it is OK to touch their students, pat them on the back, hold their hand on the throttle etc.?

Thankyou from a soon-to-be-training-instructors Instructor!

[Kermit 180]

In a time where accusations of harassment can be prevalent, here we are in an environment of risk. By that I mean it's acceptable to have a student in a classroom with the door slightly open, because everyone can see and hear the conversation. When you get into the aeroplane you both enter a very private area, where any complaint from either person about harrassment (eg, touching) can be difficult to verify or disprove.

Given that scenario, the instructor is at risk of being exposed to such accusations. When you feel the need to help someone by, for example, having your hand on theirs to move the throttle together to reassure them in their movements, you should advise/ask them first. "I will help you with the throttle to show you what i mean, ok?" If the student objects to it, ask them to remove their hands and to watch what goes on.

Touching a student should be done with caution. Occasionally you might nudge a student lightly if you want them to look up or as a gesture of humour together with an appropriate comment, but the difference between this and actually groping the student are two different things. In the same vain, be careful not to show any signs of aggression that may be misconstrued as an act of assault. Its a tricky world where the actions of a careless few have made life for the rest of us very tricky.

In summary, keep your hands to yourself unless it is absolutely necessary, and whenever possible in an enclosed area, have witnesses present or nearby. Use common sense.

Kermie :)

[helimutt]

The above points are well taken unless of course the following apply:-
a. female
b. over the legal age
c. willing
d. "she has control"
e. attired in mini skirt
f. attractive enough for the job
;)

obviously I'm joking here!!!!

[ 12 August 2001: Message edited by: helimutt ]

[AerBabe]

Being a current female student, I'd like to comment on this one. I have flown with 3 male instructors, and have had physical contact with all of them at some time or other, but to differing extents. One in particular is very unaware of personal space, but I fly with him more often, so it's become less of a problem. It does sometimes make me feel uncomfortable, but I don't really want to say anything to him. Obviously if it went too far I would though!

I would say just to be aware of your student's personal space. This can be difficult if you're a big bloke (and most instructors are for some reason) in a small cockpit. Be even more aware during the initial lessons when the student's going to be hyper-sensitive about every little thing, and not aware that physical contact can be a necessary part of training.

Good luck, and I hope your first female student isn't tall, blonde, and curvy! ;)

[Whirlybird]

I've been thinking about this one and I'm inclined to agree with AerBabe. In the original example referred to the instructor was sitting behind the student, but most of us learn in PA38s or C152s, where we sit side by side, and there's not a lot of room. My memories when I was learning are of the instructor being too close, just by being there. I could practically feel what he was thinking, as it were, or so it felt. If I was feeling bad, or close to tears, physical contact could easily have made it worse. There are other ways of showing that you understand and care which can't be construed as invasive; maybe just telling the student they're doing OK, or asking if they'd like you to take over for a minute or two. I too was a female student with male instructors; it might be a bit different with two people of the same sex, but I'm not sure it's appropriate anyway, unless you've been flying with the person for quite a while and know them quite well. Maybe when you're on the ground; I don't think I'd have minded a friendly hug now and again after a lesson when it all seemed to be going haywire, but not at 3000 ft please!

[AerBabe]

Another quick thought on this one.... In the side by side cockpit of the C152, the instructors sometimes sling their left arm around the student's seat. How about mentioning casually that it's due to lack of space? No need to make a big fuss about it, just point out that you do it with the guys too!

[Kermit 180]

Ummm, I can't think how putting my arm around the other seat makes it any roomier. It doesn't make it any more comfortable, you just get cramp in the shoulder instead of being cooped up. Who the heck wants an eye full of the instructor's armpit anyway?

Kermie http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/aircraft/stuka2.gif

[AerBabe]

NZ instructors are obviously much more waif-like and slender than British ones Kerm. If you're really 'broad shouldered' it gives the student more room if you get the hell out of the way! Or maybe this is just something that happens in my club?!

[Kermit 180]

Plenty of "broadies" in NZ AerBabe. Me, I'm built for speed not comfort. :)

Kermie http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/aircraft/stuka2.gif

[Whirlybird]

Ah Kermie, you've obviously never been a smallish female squashed into a C152 with a large male :D I learned on a Traumahawk, which is marginally bigger, and it wasn't too bad. But when I switched clubs and aircraft, and was flying with a 15 stone male friend - well, Danny might ban me if I repeated some of the language I used in persuading him to just give me enough room to reach the controls!!!!! Aerbabe, I completely sympathise.

[Arm out the window]

I'd say that any kind of physical contact, except accidental, is out of line.
There are many non-contact ways to break the ice and show that you're not a hard bastard; all of us have been learners, and if you think back to those days it's not so hard to empathise with your student.

Just a few honest, sympathetic words person-to-person rather than ******-to-scumbag style is all that's required.

Touching is all too easily misinterpreted; if you want to try it on with your student, leave it for the bar afterwards.

To demonstrate control movements, in the case of a shared throttle or whatever, let them use the normal hand position, and you (using your above average skill and dexterity!) use the base of the lever.

It's just not appropriate, you are professionals.

(I can't believe this auto-censoring - the asterisked word above was s k y g o d - what the ****'s wrong with that?)

[ 15 August 2001: Message edited by: Arm out the window ]

[Kermit 180]

Correct, I have most definitely, positively, categorically, never been a female. And instructor/student relationships are best left until the training is complete. Or else change the instructor.

Kermie http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/aircraft/stuka2.gif

[hdaae]

Agreed. Ive seen that first hand once.
A collegue got a female student. They got along very well, and he sensed that the student liked him past just as a instructor.
But as long as he stayed professional, the instuction proceeded without suffering from her feelings towards him. This stayed uncomplicated for a long time, but as soon as he got a little more relaxed in the cockpit coz of the obviously good friendship they shared, things went downhill fast..
instructionwise... She were now aware that he liked her also, and manuvers that before were second nature before, she were unable to preform as long as he were the instructor.
After 2 flights thereafter he approached me and asked if I could take her as my student coz there were no way he could continue teaching her.
To his defence, they moved in together, and the feelings were mutual, but it goes to show that emotions and touching got no buissniss in the cockpit.

If something like this develops..CHANGE INSTRUCTOR AT ONCE!!

[ 19 August 2001: Message edited by: SkyBug ]

[rebeccadblake]

(from a young female)I would like to add to this.

I am a current ppl trainee flying a c152, its nerve racking being in a c152 for the first time, but when you have such a gorgeous instuctor as mine you wont mind.

So my advise find a nice FI to teach you.

[chicken6]

Thanks for the view from the left side AerBabe and Whirlybird. Having never been female myself either it really does help having some actual feedback. And no the first one who left was a guy :( , the second one I couldn't get in touch with (please excuse the terrible humour but I've been in moderate turbulence for 4 hours this afternoon) was female, short blonde and curvy :D, and the second female who I sent solo after about 4 hours was just not in the race but good fun to fly with :) .

Anyway, moving on....thankyou AerBabe for reminding me about the hypersensitivity early on in a student's training. And I can't stand it when people put their arm behind me! It always makes me flinch because my brother used to do that just before he whacked me on the back of the head on long car trips. One of the instructors who took me through my instructor's rating in a C152 used to do it and I told him to stop it so he put both of his arms in front. With him and me there neither of us could breathe properly or move the inside arm sideways! So sometimes it is necessary, but not with me thankfully unless there's a pretty big person in the seat next to me. And now I'm teaching in Tomahawks I realise the value of the extra few inches across the cockpit. It's just that bit where the ELBA and trim wheel are makes all the difference in the ambience in the cabin - there's room to spread a map out a bit more.

And Arm out the window, that gets a bit cold after a while! ;) And on the Cessnas or Grummans if the students hand completely covers the throttle button there's not many other ways of doing the same thing if you need a bit of power to prevent a heavy landing. On the Piper series agreed, you can move the lever to help out or simulate EFATO or FLWOP.

[hdaae]

Heh...Becky...you might view it differently if your FI expresses feelings towards you.
Your thoughts might start to wander and not focused on whats at hand...like Flare to land etc? :)

I were suprised how much it affected her as soon as my collegue let her know that he wanted the same that she did.
As I said, the mind wanders I guess, and taking orders from someone that is sharing bed with you might be too much to deal with.

But..as I said, as long as she only had a good eye to him and he kept his feelings under control, everything were fine. So there is nothing wrong with having a potential model as a FI. Might be more inspiring to come to the airport then. :)

[rebeccadblake]

Hello I would like to apologise for what I wrote earlier I was VERY drunk, and depressed after dumping my boyfriend.

And I am hoping that my instuctors hasn't read this, ohh well will find out soon.

[Sqwark2000]

Kermie - I can concur with the "arm on top of the students seat back" method in the C152. Allows you to get your back into the corner of your own seat and the door which actually moves your torso a good couple of inches outwards. (I used it more to brace myself for a heavy landing than anything else :eek: )

On the touchy feely business, I quite often place my hand on top/bottom of the students throttle hand to demonstrate the throttle adjustments required on the final approach. I've used it on male & female students and have had no problems.

A student shouldn't mis-concieve your intentions if you're "pattering" the exercise, but also dont sit there with your hand/s glued to the students limbs for S&L when not necessary.

S2K

PS I found in the C152 that reaching over to turn off Ignition and masters required arm extension between the students knees! Now that can raise sme eyebrows depending on who you are with!

[rebeccadblake]

I may have let on to my FI today how much I like him, by telling him about my "comments" on forums I didn't discuss the contents of the "comment" although he may have guessed.

If you are reading this A*** then well done for finding it. ;)

I hope you dont find this to distressing knowing that one of your students likes you a lot, I really enjoyed todays lesson with you (monday 27th).

Quote:- Once tasted flight you will always hold your head sky-bound, for there you have been and there you long to return..

[kilotango]

Beckxy - your predicament is the main reason I don't do more posts, I live in dread of my instructor reading my ramblings and guessing it's me. Just to return to the issue, my instructor is quite touchy feely, but I actually quite like it as a teaching style. I am quite prickly about intimacy and introverted, so it just goes to show that each relationship is different and each person in question must put out feelers to guage whether or not their behaviour is well-received. Or maybe it's just about the role of the flying instructor; I crave his approval in whatever form it comes!

[Kermit 180]

I dont want to be a kiljoy, but students must also be aware of the consequences of 'unsavoury' (for want of a better word) instructor/student relationships. Its unprofessional for either person to partake in such an inappropriate relationship during the flight training process. After the training it is fine, no objections at all. If theres something going on it needs to be stopped or either of you should arrange for another instructor.

Kermie :eek: