The Handley Page Victor.

[Noah Zark.]

Would anyone having had any experiences with the H.P. Victor, in all of its roles, in whatever capacity, care to share any anecdotes with us, please?

[MrBernoulli]

The question is a bit broad brush don't you think? What are you really after?

[Yarpy]

How about:

'Standing your Porch, looking through your letterbox, trying to land your house!'

[Art Field]

How about standing in your porch, looking through the letter box, trying to land your house which allegedly lands itself, trying to stop it by opening the back door, which will often fall off and will then have to be put back on from a great height in the pouring rain and never quite fits.

Of course you had to get the darn thing airborne in the first place, if only Freds Shed had actually put intakes in front of the Sapphires instead of more letter boxes then the multi ton budgie might have been less of of a concrete gobbler, thank goodness for the Mk2.

[Noah Zark.]

MrBernoulli,
Hopefully a similar response to my other post in M.A., re-The Other E.E. Classic, etc.

[soddim]

Never flew it but took a lot of gas off it.

My favourite recollection of those who operated it was a cryptic comment penned beneath a notice in the planning room at RAF Gan that implored the captains of four-jets to line up at least 1000 feet down the runway in order to avoid damage to the approach lights on engine run-up:

"I will write off the approach lights at one end or the other - which would you prefer?"

[MrBernoulli]

Noah Zark,

Sorry, I hadn't NB'd that the Canberra thread was also yours.

[Pontius Navigator]

Fred was convinced he could make the Victor with semi-skilled labour. He did.

The wing fairing, or whatever, had 4 master holes and the rest were drilled by the hired help using the TLAR technique.

Years later, against stiff competition, BWOS won the contract to rebuild the B2 into K2. The wings had to be shortened, stiffened, and refitted.

They got the first ac in, stripped it, created the plans, and made 25 ship sets. Only one problem. All 25 were identical. All 25 fitted just one aircraft.

Back to the drawing board <g>.

[FJJP]

Not unlike the Vulcan bombay doors saga. When they converted a batch of B2s to Blue Steel carriers, they had to replace the bombdoors, because the missile was to be recessed into the bombay. They took off all the doors and carefully chucked them in a heap in a storeroom without noting which doors came from which airframe. Some years later, they had to convert them back to conventional bombers - and guess what, they couldn't match the doors to the aircraft, so they had to manufacture new ones. Guess who footed the bill?

[BEagle]

F4 canopies weren't any better!

[Compass Call]

Pontius Navigator

BWOS did the same with wingboxes for the "new" Nimrod. They took one wingbox and copied it exactly - after being told they were wrong - and made 15. Now one Nimrod has 14 spares!!

Of course when you employ monkies and pay peanuts..............


CC

[Art Field]

It was often said that if Fred had known we were going to leave his Victors out in the rain then he would have made them waterproof which they certainly were not until the cabin was pressurized. Water would drip all over the side panels and now and again cause short circuits. One switch on the captains side panel was the "ABANDON AIRCRAFT" switch which put lights on in front of the rear crew and depressurized the cabin and at height that would create a lot of noise as the air escaped. When trundling along on a high level navex one day with an OCU crew that circuit did indeed short and it was only by dint of a lot of shouting that I managed to avoid violating the GASO that stated the Victor could only be operated by a five man crew.

[Pontius Navigator]

Then there was the Victor crew on the 22 West Borex. Fly out into the Atlantic as far as 22 west, switch on ALL the jammers and hope no one noticed.

On this particular trip all the crew swapped places, the Captain was not up front. The plotter was in one of the bang seats, live but not strapped, and another crew member was in the other. It could have been the co as co's are like what happened next.

Plotter asked "Whats that black and yellow handle" Don't know, came the reply, "pull it and find out"

Now the good news. It didn't work as advertised. The canopy refused to jettison. Now the bad news, it did depressurise.

At the subsequent courts martial they got the plotter, the captain, and the groundcrew. Guilty as charged milud.

[Dan Winterland]

Flying from an aierfield in Florida to Goose Bay one day up the Eastern Seabord at FL450.

"Centre, this is RAFAIR 9355. Can we have FL490?."

"Certainly, if you can reach it."

Two minutes later........

"RAFAIR 9355, level 490".

Short Break.

" RAFAIR, this is American xxxx, what sort of airplane (sic) are you?"

"A Victor".

Slightly longer break........

"Say buddy, who makes the Victor?

"Handley Page".

Silence..................................................... ...........!




PS. It was a Mk2.

[Noah Zark.]

Just to follow D.W's post, what altitude would a Mk.2 reach in top fettle on a good day?

[MrBernoulli]

In it's latter days the K Mk 2 was only cleared to FL 490 because of the way the Mk 17F oxygen regulator would behave if a rapid decomp occurred. The SR version used to go higher - those who flew it will no doubt tell more .....

[smartman]

Wittering in 1967 I think. Sitting on the pan in a 234 Hunter preparing for a practice 50th Royal Review flypast, and this Victor appears from behind the tower at nothing feet - utterly impressive, and flown by the then OC. Anyone remember his name - a real character -------

[Dan Winterland]

FL490 was a limit imposed by the MK17 reg as it was a pressure breathing gadget only. RAF rules required some sort of pressure suit to go above that. Prior to conversion to tankers, the B2s and SR2s had the facility to run a pressure jerkin - a partial pressure suit which covered the torso only and allowed the wearer to breathe the high pressure oxy supplied, as well as stopping the wearer's lungs going pop!.

The B2s could get to FL630, the SR2s to FL670 apparently. The K2 (tanker) had shorter wingspans, uprigged ailerons, refuelling pods and underwing tanks on - all of which reduced it's max alt.

[Noah Zark.]

I must say that from a non-expert point of view the SR2 FL670 is very impressive!

[keithl]

I got to F630 in an SR2, so I believe F670 although I don't remember the actual limit. What I do remember is being bundled up in Pressure Jerkin, G-suit and old-style immersion suit - two piece job which rolled together in a sort of 'tyre round your middle! Now I look like that without the goon suit...

smartman, that would have been Harry Archer, wouldn't it?

[Flatus Veteranus]

If you really got to 630 or above and had a rapid decomp, you would have been in big trouble, methinks. Unless you were wearing a full pressure suit.

[smartman]

keithl

Spot on - thanks

[soddim]

I remember from the early F4 days that it required the partial pressure suit plus the Taylor helmet to get the AEA cleared to 65,000ft - any alternative fit in those days would have been the pressure jerkin, anti-G suit and Taylor helmet but the rate of descent after decompression would have to have been quite brisk to survive.

[Flatiron]

Compared with the Vulcan, the Victor was made far too complicated. Systems worked in a mysterious way on the B1, largely because Fred's Shed tried too hard. The B1 engine intake was a classic. Who nowadays would put engines behind 52 degrees of sweep? You had to roll forward 1,000ft before any serious thrust kicked in.

I liken the Victor to a Rolls Royce - stately facia and gentleman's control column. But nothing could beat it for high level performance. It is interesting how Avro started with a straight delta leading edge and turned it into a crescent. And the Victor 2's performance was easily underestimated. 543 lost a Victor 2 over Warboys because DH, the pilot, ran in at well over max speed while pulling way over max 'g'. Most other aircraft would not have even let him get so much adrift. DH was notorious for having left his brain behind on the Meteor. His rear crew knew he was lethal and they went to the boss to ask not to fly with him, but the boss at the time was a Nav and he didn't feel up to siding against his senior pilot.

Later on, we lost another at Wyton with all my former crew on because the captain tried an asymmetric overshoot too low and discoverd the hard way that two Conways at idle don't deliver max power at anything like the same rate as two 20,000 lb engines already warm.

When I joined my first Victor crew, I brought the average age down to 45. The captain used to wake up on detachment with nightmares about being chased by Me109s over the desert, and the AEO - the loveable 'Zoom' Summerson - had been shot down in Fairey Battles in 1940. Those were the days!

[old fart]

Hi Noas Zark.
If you would like to e-mail me I will send you a photo of a passing out day flypast that we did at RAF Swinderby on the 3rd Dec 1970. The reviewing officer was Group Capt. John Smith who was station commander of our base at Marham.
The photo is a bit of a fraud, it is two pictures joined together by the Swinderby photographer.
The reason was that they wanted a photo of John Smith saluting on the reviewing platform with his hat on.
Unfortunately we were a little low as we flew over and blew it off!!
Brgds,
Old fart.

[SirToppamHat]

On an ATC summer camp many years ago at Manston, I spent a day with the Fire Section. In those days, Manston was one of the 2 MEDAs, had a huge runway and could lay a foam blanket that was supposed to be useful for putting down an ac without undercarriage. Not sure how useful the blanket was; I don't think they are currently in favour.

Back to the thread, the thing that sticks in my mind was that they had Boards all over the walls commemorating crashes at the Unit. A bit like the list of stn cdrs you see on the wall at Handbrake House, but these were huge and all round the walls with dates. I seem to remember they went something like:

Victor
Victor
Vampire
Victor
Victor
Vampire
Victor
Vulcan
Victor
Victor
Victor
Vampire
Vampire
Vampire
Victor
Victor
Victor
Victor
Vulcan
Victor
Victor
Victor

I remember thinking the people flying them must have been hugely optimistic or brave if these boards were indicative of the reliability of the aircraft listed. Manston also had a huge 'ac graveyard' with all sorts for us to clamber around. If it's still there, I don't suppose cadets are allowed anywhere near.

[Yellow Sun]

Flatiron

Later on, we lost another at Wyton with all my former crew on because the captain tried an asymmetric overshoot too low and discoverd the hard way that two Conways at idle don't deliver max power at anything like the same rate as two 20,000 lb engines already warm.

You might be able to help me with a bit of info regarding one of the crew. Please see your PMs

Rgds
YS

[Dan Winterland]

A quick count of the production list in Andrew Brooke's excellent book on the Victor, it appears that 17 of the 84 built met an untimely end. Not a sparkling safety record, but not outrageous compared with other military jets of the period. Allthough it was a big jet, it's not of the same genre as a passenger aircraft such as the VC10 and should not be compared with such.

[SirToppamHat]

Could some of those listed on the Manston boards have been returned to service? Perhaps the list included emergency/precautionary landings?

STH

[Art Field]

Of the 17 lost I can account for 7. One at Wittering in the B2 era, I know Benny Jackson was the co-pilot, one at Akrotiri due, I believe, to flap selector problems, two at Wyton, the overstress fly by and the double asymmetric, one during a refuelling exercise out of Marham when its tail was hit by a Buccaneer, another at Marham at T/O when a turbine shattered and the aircraft (232) caught fire and the land short at Hamilton, Canada.

STH. I agree I think most of the Manston incidents were not crashes but bogey tipple hook faults (main undercarriage wheel rotation locks) which required a precautionary foam landing.

[Pontius Navigator]

There was a mid-air over the Wash/North Norfolk about 1968. Canberra out of Holbeach hit a Victor out of Marham, I thinK.

Weather was 100% dog sh1t and ATC radar was totally maxed out with weather. I was the Duty Controller at Waddo, which meant that I was in my pit listening to the Light programme and a colleague, as duty ops officer was in Ops.

BBC reported reports of a huge explosiong over north Norfolk and speculated that an aircraft had crashed. I called ops but none of our aircraft were supposed to be in the vicinity. Plenty of hole borers but none due to be near East Anglia.

I rang Group who quickly confirmed with the other 1Gp stations. AOK then they checked with 3Gp and the bad news began.

[FJJP]

I was duty pilot in the tower at Cottesmore on the night the Bucc and Victor collided. I had a LOT of Canberras airborne, playing against Boulmer, when the word came through that SAROPS was on for a mid-air in the North Sea. You can imagine what went through my mind...

I called Boulmer allocator and he was not going to tell me who was involved. Only after I pleaded with him did he confirm that no Canberra was involved. About ten seconds after I finished the call, the Staish and OC Ops appeared telling me to find out who was involved. I told him of my phone call but he called the Boulmer allocator himself. Bless him, the man at the other end refused point blank to give the Staish anything more than he gave me - despite the Staish trying to pull rank. Staish stormed out in a fury, but OC Ops stayed for the rest of the evening.

It wasn't until the next day that we learned the awful truth...

[Flatiron]

The Victor B2 accident that Benny Jackson walked away from was caused by the captain shutting down the wrong engine after a fire light on take-off, and then getting so immersed that he misread the altimeter. Reading 140kts as 240kts was easy to do under pressure, and if he thought he had a structural failure the juddering would only convince him that he was right. Eventually the Victor flicked over to the left, even though three engines were working perfectly. The Hamilton accident was similarly due to pilot error.

Kind mention has been made of the number of Victor loses recorded in my 'Handley Page Victor' book. I think analysis will show that the Victor was much more sinned against that sinning.

Yellow Sun. No PM received. Please transmit again.

[Dan Winterland]

The 17 accidents from Andrew Brooke's book are as follows:

WB771: Prototype - crashed at Cranfield when the tail came off during low level position error checks 14 Jul 53.

XA917. Developement airframe with A&AEE. Crash landed at Radlett Jan 64. This was the first (and only official!) Victor to fly supersonic and the nose section later became the Crew Drill Trainer at Marham.

XA919: Developement airframe with A&AEE. Relegated to ground instructional duties after a flying accident on 3 Sep 59. this could be the Victor who had the Blue danube fly back into the bomb bay during drop trials causing major damage.

XA929: Accident on take off from Akrotiri 16 Jun 62.

XA934: Engine failure near Gaydon 2 Oct 62.

XH613: 4 engine flame out on approach to Cottesmore 14 Jun 62.

XH617: Damage caused by generator drive shaft failure 19 Jul 60.

XH618: Collision with Buccaneer during AAR 24 Mar 75.

XH646: Collision with Canberra over Norfolk 19 Aug 68.

XH668: B2 prototype. Crashed after unscheduled deployment of leading edge flaps over St Bride's bay during testing 20 Aug 59.

XL159: Stalled near Newark 13 Mar 63.

XL191: Crashed on approach Hamilton, Ontario 19 Jun 86.

XL230: Lost control during roller landing at Wyton 10 Mar 73.

XL232: Uncontained Turbine failure on take off at Marham 15 Oct 82.

XL513: Crashed after rejected take off from Marham 28 Sep 76.

XM714: Stalled after take off from Wittereing 20 Mar 63.

XM716: Crashed at Warboys 29 Jun 66.

[Samuel]

Having had control over a few, and also produced a definitive paper on the subject way back, I can confirm that foamed runways provided a largely psychological boost rather than any practical value. There was never any evidence produced that foaming or not foaming made any difference whatsoever, and the USAF once produced a study which confirmed that fact.

It could also only be completed at those airfields that were provided with the purpose built equipment which was towed down the runway. If all you had was your standard crash/fire vehicles, it wasn't really practicable because they were designed to produce a lot of foam in a hurry, but not over any length of time, and replenishment between discharge meant that the foam path would take too long to lay and would be breaking down at the start point before you finished it. Those vehicles also could not produce foam while moving, [always a huge disadvantage], so they would have to be towed by another vehicle. Meanwhile, there would be the problem of the aircraft itself having to circle for an additional hour or so...:bored:

XA 929 and XH163 were both Cottesmore based at the time they were lost, in the same week.

[Few Cloudy]

Well Pontious Navigator, after due reflection I have decided to reply to your post about the "Borex incident."

Firstly some background - the Tanker Squadrons at Marham had just received the K1a 3 point tanker - which opened the possibility of Victor to Victor refuelling. The powers that were, as soon as we were all trained up on receiving, scheduled horrendous trips of 11 plus hours with two max load transfers and time to do all the navex's that you wanted. 14 hours, by the way was the limit, because the K1a had no oil qty guage and at worst predicted consumption you could have an engine at minimum oil qty. I am sure that even longer ball-breakers would have been planned were it not for that...

As FO, or Copilot as we were then called, I rode jump seat on many a max load training session to check the fuel balance - as the right hand seat had an instructor in it and the left, the Captain under training. On these trips it was commonplace for the various crew members to try out someone else's seat - indeed on one of them, our senior Captain and instructor coached his AEO round a couple of visual circuits, while I worked the AEO panel and read the checklist.

This was of course completely against all rules but was the state of play as I went through my copilot career. It was not a good example to the new boys, though it encouraged understanding of the other crew positions.

Now Pontious let's compare stories! The date was Aug 13 1970, the base Marham, the sortie not a Borex, which were not performed from Marham (no jammers) but a max load transfer / max endurance trip and the ship was XH588. Following the first fuel transfer, the Copilot went for the pee tube and the plotter sat next to the Captain for five minutes. After the Copilot was back, he took control and the Captain, who had backache, went back. The Nav radar sat in the Captain's seat. Each time the pins were put in. The seats were not live. On the K1a it was neccessary to change oxygen hose adaptors to make these moves and this also was done. The Captain had a sandwich at the Radar's table. About half way through the sandwich the Radar, who was a tall lad, asked the Copilot on intercom how to lower the seat. The Co replied that there was a handle like a car handbrake lever which first had to be squeezed.

This was true but on the left of the seat was another handle - also like a type of car brake lever in use in those days - and this was the hatch jettison lever. This lever was supposed to be striped yellow and black but actually had little yellow on it. Before anyone could intervene there was a loud bang and strong smell of explosive exhaust in the cockpit. The hatch, which had, as it transpired, not been designed to blow with a pressurised cabin, stayed on. The aircraft did not depressurise.

Having got the by now white faced Radar back to his position and examined the damage (jacks partially torn from the structure - torque mechanism hadn't budged) the Captain returned to his seat. In order to reduce diff pressure on the hatch, he ordered a depressurisation and max rate descent. A Pan was declared and the ship returned to Marham, avoiding built up areas and landing there after 6hrs 55minutes.

There was no court martial. There were two courts of inquiry. The first one was for the Radar, who received an almighty chewing out by the AOC. The second was for the Captain, who was, however able to prove that he needed a longer break from the seat and put the Radar there to assist in lookout., while he was absent. He got a somewhat milder bollocking. This mildness was, in part due to an engine failure on takeoff and successful heavyweight circuit in the month following the incident (coincidentally also in XH588). The aircraft was repaired at unit level - thanks to some sterling work by the squadron engineers.

One important fact to emerge, was that because the hatch would not blow in the pressurised state, an unpremeditated ejection would also have been impossible - the hatch detachment being neccessary for initiating the timing mechanism. The drill for evacuation was in any case to depressurise and evacuate the rear crew before ejection.

If I seem to have intimate knowledge of this trip, believe me, I do! It is in my log book and the Captain is listed as Self. Not a trip I am proud of. It brought an end to the musical chair scenario at Marham and generally made crews a bit more serious. The flip comments about "don't know - pull it and find out" however, belong with some of the other details in Pontious'summary in the recycle bin.

FC.

[Pontius Navigator]

FC, thanks for telling it how is was. I was either in 1st division north at the time or on my way to NEAF. Oddly, to the modern air force, there was little interchange betwixt the Victor and Vulcan clans.

My recollection was obviuosly at fault given only the rumour cotrol at the time. Thanks again.

[Few Cloudy]

True enough Pontious - unless someone got transferred it was another world.

Until Paul Milliken got to 55sqn years later - but still flew the display Vulcan in his spare time...

[Noah Zark.]

I have at last managed to mount an expedition to the far side of my loft, and unearthed a commercially produced video of the Victor, which I new I had, but had lost track of.
It is taken at Marham (at least, it shows the Marham village sign at the beginning!)
The vid. sets out to show each individual in a crew, their task, and where they are situated in the a/c. It then goes on to show a typical training sortie, tanking from another K2, and also refuelling some Harriers and Tornado.
It's not "blessed" by hideous background "music", but the soundtrack is the R/T between the crew, and the a/c and ground.
It features K2's of 55 Sq., and the aircraft which can be identified, on the ground, in the air, etc, are:-

XM715
XL161
XL164
XL190
There are three names, two of which I can have a guess at, as their name patches wee partially obscured, or w.h.y., and the third is clearly legible.
Of the first two, the only part I can read on one is the surname, Flynn.
The second, a pipe-smoking chap, is definitely Bill, and the surname looks to be something like SCRADO. Apologies of course, if I'm wrong.
The third, definite, is Tim Butler.
By the way, a comment in the dialogue tells me that this was circa 1993.
A comment, if I may. It looked naff for the guys in the back, working with the huge parachute strapped to their back all of the time. And finally a question. What were the two retractable air scoops on top of the fuselage in front of the fin for?

[FJJP]

Not SCRADO, but Bill Scraggs, ex-Vulcan plotter (and a damn fine one at that!)

The 2 scoops refered to are the air intakes for the retractable RATs (or Ram Air Turbines), that produced power in the event of a total (or partial) loss of engine-driven electricity.

[Few Cloudy]

Noah,

Haven't seen that video but the village sign - has it got a bull in the centre? If so it is the base sign made by a fine local artist, whose name escapes me for the moment, who did in fact make village signs and donated this one to RAF Marham - probably in return for the hospitality of the officers mess - bar, that is...

[Noah Zark.]

FEW CLOUDY,
I'll get back to you tomorrow re- the village sign.

FJJP,
Thanks for the info on the air scoops.
N.Z.

[RFCC]

Interestingly (but not for the crew!) a similar hatch incident occurred in the early eighties. As the Co adjusted his seat down in mid sortie, the seat emergency oxygen bottle fouled on a poorly routed hatch jettison cable, causing the hatch jettison to operate with the same results as in the post above. Needless to say, the pins went in pretty sharpish, followed eventually by an uneventful landing.

[Milt]

Victor Park Brake Lever

Early Victors had a park brake lever over the UP U/C selector.
This was to stop wheels spinning during retraction.

Result - after a go round at BD pilot changed his mind about retraction after setting park brake.

Next Result - all tyres blew and rims bu@##$% - big dent in reputation of a test pilot.

Any other known recurrences and what was the fix?

[PPRuNe Radar]

Some nice stories and pictures of Victors on these links

Tanker Tales (http://www.redsaway.co.uk/Tanker-tales.htm)

Victor Pictures (http://www.redsaway.co.uk/Victor-picture-miscellany.htm)

AAR Pictures (http://www.redsaway.co.uk/Victor-AAR.htm)

[Art Field]

I think you will find the Marham sign was made by Harry Carter, a local artist and member of the Carter of Egyptian tombs fame family.

[Noah Zark.]

Few Cloudy,
It's negative on the "Marham" sign, I'm afraid. There's a distinct absence of 'bull', and although it's a close-up piccy of the sign, one can see that there are trees gently wafting in the breeze behind it, suggesting that this one is situated al fresco!
Regs. Noah.

[Few Cloudy]

- Milt, don't know of a fix but the drill was to brake the wheels manually before retraction on the K1a. The Maxaret anti skid only started to work once the wheels had spun up - so at the Outer Marker there was a feet off brakes check too.

- Noah and Art, Thanks - yes Harry Carter was the man - also restored some Marham pictures in the mess.

[BEagle]

Now come on, ex-Victor people, tell us alll about the infamous "OMO" times......

You know you want to! Really:E

[Art Field]

Beags, the trouble is that even at this distance, most of the memorable events in the lives of Victor crews are best left unwritten, far too hot to be on general release.

[Dipole]

And let's not forget sunning(?) ourselves in South Dakota on Prairie Vortex!

The word "Rapid" takes on a whole new meaning when you are living in Rapid City for 3 months!

[Redstripe]

Noah Zark,

The 3 people in your video would be Tim Butler, Spike Flynn and Bill Scragg. 1993 was the last year of the Victor - the squadron disbanded and crews were dispersed far and wide.

These tales remind me of a time at an airshow in Canada in 1991, standing in front of a Victor K2. A kid walked around the aircraft, read the information board and then came up to me to ask a question.

Kid: 'Were you in the Gulf War?'

Me (proudly): 'Yes, we were'

Kid (after a small pause): 'Which side were you on?'

[BikerMark]

Reading about Skyshield, it seems as if all the fun stuff like this went to the Vulcans.

Did the Victors not get a look in? I know they were a smaller proportion of the V-Force and had the bomber role for a relatively short period.

Any tales from 543 Squadron*? As a sqeaky ATC cadet, I was most impressed by their smart shiny Victors on my 1st annual camp back in 1972. Maybe their work is still Not To Be Talked About? The crews who showed us round the aircraft seemed very proud of them.

I still find the Victor very impressive. It has a sort of "Dan Dare" look to the nose and T-tail aircraft always look graceful in flight.

Mark.

*other than the Victor losses in '66 & 73.

[UncleFester]

Trying to catch a heavily fuel laden Victor tanker with a heavily laden Hercules on an air bridge abt 18000 ft somewhere over the south Atlantic.....Herc..."Can you slow down a bit?"
Victor.."If I do I'll fall out of the "F-ing Sky"
Herc.. "If you don't ssoooo will I!!"
Victor. "Can you plug in in the descent?"
Herc... "only if you slow down!"

Big silence.

Victor .." If I descend first and you then dive down to catch me will that work?

16000 feet later,heading in the opposite direction to avoid weather....just going IMC .."Contact..pushing in".
Big sighs of relief all round.
How many herc engines got "cooked" trying to catch a victor tanker....at least 24!!! to my personal knowledge!!
:ok:

[keithl]

543 tale for BikerMark.
Wyton was a wonderful place in the mid-60s for a young, single co-pilot on 543. (It was wonderful for others, too, as the SIB subsequently discovered!). As such a one, I enjoyed Friday night twofers to the full and in those days knew nothing of recommended units of alcohol and such like fun dampers. Incidentally, I used to think we were called “livers-in” because of where we lived – now I realise it was because we were still young enough to have our own!

Anyway, it seemed I had hardly managed to find my bed in the small hours of Saturday morning, when there was a knock on the door and a batman (yes, those were the days) said “phone call for you, sir”. Naturally it was the Sqn, with the usual “X has gone sick, need a copilot” message.
“But...but...I’m still pi$$ed”
“It’s only a quick trip to Colt for a static display. Can you sit in the RHS and do as you’re told?”
“Err... I suppose...”
“Good. Get over here ASAP”. Well, you didn’t argue in those days. We had batmen, yes, but we didn’t have CRM.

“Your take-off” said the Captain, with an evil grin. Now the Victor2 was much livelier than the Mk1 and at light weights it was outrageous! We passed the upwind end of the runway going through 6000ft, me hanging on to the controls helplessly while my mind spun quietly round, still on the runway. Top of Climb, autopilot in and my mind caught up with me. It made me feel sick.

“Your landing.” Said the evil Captain. I couldn’t. I just couldn’t. Discipline or not, I refused. They do experiments these days, with simulators, on the effect of alcohol on flying. I know the effect and believe me, I never did it again!

After we landed at Colt we were taken to the Mess where, guess what? Our friendly hosts had opened the bar early for the Open Day...!

[Dan Winterland]

Scene: A static display line at an airshow somewhere in the mid west of the US of A in the late 80s. DW is very hung over and bored beyond senseless by answering unending inane questions from the lower end product of the US rural schooling system, who don't seem to know that other countries other than the US of A even exist. A 300lb red neck approaches with the look that says he's just thought of a really good question.

300lbRK. "Hey buddy, what sort of airplane is this?"

DW. "It's a Victor".

300lbRK. "So what does it do?"

DW. "It's the British stealth bomber. It's only just become operational, just ahead of the B2".

300lbRK. "Oh! How did you get it here?"

DW. We had to ship it out. We couldn't fly it here because it's still secret"

300lbRK "Wow, I must tell my buddies".

He obviously did, as a story about the secret British stealth bomber at the town's airshow appeared in the local paper the next day!

[Gainesy]

Well, to be fair, it does look more modern than a B-2.

Met an ex-Victor co once, who then became both a dentist and flew for, I think, Spotty M. He told of a time as a green JP at Marham, manning the spare for a trail to Singapore. Ended up launching and arriving at Tengah a few days later with only his SD hat, long johns and goon suit.

Also told of a billiards cue with a sponge bodge-taped to it as a handy windscreen de-mist back up.

You out there Tom?

[Snakecharmer]

Strange no-one's mentioned that it could (and did) drop a greater bomb load in one drop than any other British aeroplane...

[ZH875]

The Victor may have had a larger bomb load than all of Avro's Bombers, but Avro had the last laugh when they converted the Victors to Tankers.

Which was better, the Victor or the Vulcan. Could the Lucky Pilots who flew both, pass on their thoughts as to how the two aircraft performed and which they preferred.

My thoughts as groundcrew: The Vulcan was my favourite (Well I only worked on the Victor for 6 Hours), but there was something in the way the Victor just sat there looking menacing and yet so graceful at the same time.

[ZH875]

Mike Jenvey, We have probably met in the distant past, I was a Fairy on 50 Sqn from 1979 to it's demise in 1984, and although the HDU was a bit of a bodge job, at least it removed the age old Fairy problem of Water/Glycol running down your arm and up the sleeve when the hoses refused to lock on first time.

As to Start up, at least on the Vulcan we could stand in the dry, and if the AEO was a good'un he would start the rover and warm us up and dry us out.

[BEagle]

From a receiver pilot's viewpoint, the Victor was probably the worst tanker we ever had! But only because the Mk 20 pods at low tanker fuel weights couldn't keep up with the offload requirements of an F4!

The Vulcan was a very nice, stable platform to prod - the only mildly disorientating thinhg was the 2 underwing anti-colls gave the impression (at night) that you were further aay from the drogue than you really were. The MFI wardrobe HDU housing wasn't the best - and I once prodded a Vulcan drogue and the HDU failed to take up the slack properly, leading to a large travelling wave coming back down the hose towards me! Fortunately I disconnected quickly before it did so, else it would have taken the probe tip! But a rewind and trail fixed it and we got our gas!

I prodded the F4 against Victor, Vulcan, KC-135 (+BDA) and KC-10. In order of preference, I'd put the Vulcan and KC-10 equal first, then the Victor - but the KC-135 (+BDA) a very distant last!

I never prodded the VC10 against the Victor, but witnessed quite a few attempts from the co-pilots seat. The vibration, buffeting and trim changes involved were considerable and must have had a considerable adverse effect on a/c fatigue consumption!

With the number of stickies being something of an issue to some folk, perhaps the 'Vulcan' and 'Victor' threads could be combined into a single "Were you in the V-force" sticky?

[Gainesy]

Unsticking this one appears to have revived it though.

[lasernigel]

BEagle. On your comment "it would have taken the probe tip". Did this actually happen when re-fuelling and what were the consequences if any?

[keithl]

lasernigel I know your question was addressed to Beagle but I'll answer as it did happen to me. I was Tanking in a Nimrod, from a Tristar, when just the sort of travelling wave that Beagle described developed. We weren't quick enough to break contact and the hose just ripped out the probe tip easy as anything! No particular consequences - not in the Nimrod, anyway. In fact one of the nice things about AAR was that it was about the only activity where you could damage HM aeroplanes with impunity!

[Dan Winterland]

The official advice given should your overtake speed on contact be too high for the HDU to take up the slack was to sit there and take what was coming. As the probe tip has a sideways shear force of about 1000lbs, this invariably meant leaving it stuck in the basket! There were few structural flight safety implications, but the fuel hoovering out of the now open basket mushroom valve meant that your in flight visibilty was somewhat impaired. Not such a good thing considering how close you were to another aircraft!

I saw it happen twice, but not as a result of my handling I'm pleased to say.

[BEagle]

The probe tip is fitted with a weak link secured by shear rivets. The idea is that if things get tense, the probe tip breaks cleanly and stays in the drogue. Obviously that puts both reciever probe and hose out of action, but no other really significant consequence.

I've seen tipless probes with a bean tin speed-taped over the soggy end used as a get-you-home device before now.

The Timmy has a habit of walloping rather high fuel pressures down the hose if allowed to - I've had excess fuel pressure blow the probe tip out of the drogue on initial contact behind a TriShaw. Making contact with low pressure in the hose and then selecting the Carter pumps on seems to help - and stopped the pulsing effect.

On the A310 MRTT, the current plan is for 2 Carter pumps to supply the AAR gallery, pressure is then regulated and augmented at the pod by the RAT ('pod prop') system. But the Carters are quite powerful beasts, so I can't see the pod RATs having to work particularly hard!

[lasernigel]

Just to ask another on refuelling.Has anyone done it the "USAF way" with a probe and which works better?

[SirToppamHat]

The KC135s now often get airborne with their equivalent of the HDUs on the VC10, allowing probe-equipped USAF/USN ac to refuel using probe and drogue rather than the boom method. There is a limited number of sets at Mildenhall, so not all 135s have them.

IIRC, MPRS = Multi-Point Refuelling System.

Can anyone out there confirm whether and which RAF ac are cleared to refuel from MPRS? From what I have heard and read, it would seem to be a much better option than BDA! Such a capability might also improve prospects for bootleg!!!!!!!!

[vascodegama]

Is n't a bit of knowledge a dangerous thing? The HDU is the centre hose on the VC10 and the 135 no direct equivalent. I take it STH means the wing hoses of the MPRS equipped ac. The availability of said assets has f*** all to do with sets rather the no of ac that have been modded. The set no problems is that on the KC10. All types of the FJs in theatre in GW2 used the MPRS but I cant say whether the RTS' still allow this.

BEags -just read your crit on tanker types. The Mk 20 pod gave a low fuel flow whatever the Victor fuel state which is why out of choice we refuelled F4s on the HDU rather than in pairs on the wings. I cant believe the lash up on the Vulcan was any better that the Victor HDU.

[BEagle]

No mate - the HUD installation was much the same, but the airflow behind the a/c was smoother. Plus there was no other option, so pitching up on the wing of a Vulcan meant that you'd always find a centreline hose, rather than having to ask for a hose swap on the Victor if it had the Mk 20s hoses extended.

Have seen the films of clearing GAF Tornados against the KC-135 MPRS. Very exciting - but better than the BDA for sure. Only had to prod that once - that was on a live scramble in a Q-fit F4 with 3 tanks and 8 rockets and without having had the benefit of any instruction, either dual or theoretical.....

[SirToppamHat]

Vascodegama ...

Sorry, muppetry acknowledged, not intended.

Yes, I did indeed mean to compare the under-wing hose units on the VC10 with those on the KC135.

Notwithstanding the previous confusion, during a visit a few months ago to Mildenhall, the crew hosting us were quite specific that the number of sets available at the Unit was limited. Perhaps it was their use of phraseology that created the confusion in my mind, but the implication was that there were more airframes able to take the pods themselves than there were pods. Moreover, the pods themselves were 'removable' (no small task I know), so that for extended periods where the additional capability was not required, the airframes could operate without the drag which the pods must create.

Back to the original question: I know that one of the reasons the MPRS was developed was to allow the KC-135 to support USN ac types, and an old Boeing press release:

http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/1997/news.release.970120a.html

indicated that the intention was additionally to provide the capability for other NATO ac. What I want to know is whether a routine UK sortie of F3s/Jags/GR4s/GR9s requesting bootleg would be interested/able to take fuel from a MPRS-equipped KC-135? Given what was said about GW II refuelling, presumably this is, as vascodegama suggests, an RTS issue. Does anyone know, or should I just not bother looking at AARA 8 next time I am asked if there is any bootleg available in the North Sea?

[BikerMark]

Keithl - TVM for the 543 anecdote. I can imagine the climb out you described. The SR2s I saw operating certainly looked very lively.

I had my first introduction to the pleasures and perils of the hop at Wyton.

Mark.

[lasernigel]

Sorry my ignorance and wording. What I meant to ask was ..Has anyone done it with the boom method when on exchange with the USAF and which method do they think is better?

[Ya Zi]

I guess the main difference between handling the Victor and the Vulcan was the speed at which you flew the approach. Is that correct Mike? :E

[Art Field]

Ya Zi, is your other name Ron Atkinson?.

[Dan Winterland]

The MPRS fit is the same as on the French KC135Fs, albeit the French aircraft use the FR MK32 pod wheras the USAF use the Sergeant Fletcher version of the same pod - although I believe Sergteant Fletcher may well be owned by FR now. The pod sits right at the very wingtip out of necessity (due to the outboard engines). Consequently, it sits in the wing Vortex and needs an airflow deflector on the pod to cancel out the effect of the Vortex as well as an 80' hose as opposed to the 50' one normally fitted. I gather it makes receiving from it quite sporty at times - especially if you drift towards tthe centreline and catch the efflux from the engine.

[Ya Zi]

Damn! Found out already.

PS. Anyone need a sports commentator?

[small_dog]

Lasernigel,

The RAF Sentries are equipped to be refuelled via a boom , I've witnessed one from the cockpit of a Sentry that refuelled from a KC-135.

As it was my first "jump seat ride", I wouldn't be able to make any informed comments on the technicalities of it compared to the probe and drogue (maybe someone from 8 or 23 Sqns would care to) . But it did feel unusual to see a guy with baseball cap and headset on staring at you from the tail of the tanker that was only about 5 metres away!

[Flatiron]

The philosophical query has been raised about why the Vulcan always seem to get a better press than the Victor? When I talked with the Handley Page design team many years ago, they felt the same grief over the way in which the Lancaster always seemed to overshadow the Halifax. Radlett strove to design a jet bomber that could carry more, and fly further and higher than the Avro opposition, and the Victor did that (e.g. 35,000lb bomb load compared with 21,000lb for the Vulcan). We must get round to posting the photo of Tommy Thomson dropping 35 1,000lb bombs on the Song Song range.

But it didn't seem to make any difference, and I think the answer is two-fold. First, the aluminium triangular overcast was a more awesome sight at flying displays. Second the Victor became a multi-role aircraft, whereas the Vulcan was pretty much bomber focused. Witness the proportion of tanker or SR related tales on this thread.

Talking of which, while on the Victor 2 OCU I represented RAF Wittering on the parade marking the disbandment of Bomber Command and the stand-up of STC in 1968. My mind had wandered to the legs of the PM officer with the Nocton Hall flight when the flypast started. At below 1,000ft, in swept a Victor three point tanker, supposedly with three Lightnings hooked in trail. But only two Lightnings ran-in, leaving one hose unattached. The third Lightning had gone in during the join up, killing the pilot. Nowadays, the flying display would have been cancelled while everyone shared their pain. In 1968, the attitude was somewhat more robust.

[Snakecharmer]

Flat Iron... be careful of the well-known pic of the Victor dropping the 35 1000 pounders... it's a fake! On the occasion you mention there were, apparently, plenty of Indonesian press in boats nearby (for that was the whole point of the event!), but I've never seen any pics taken on the day.

Even asked the Gp Capt in AHB to dig some out for me... heard nothing since.

[You want it when?]

You mean this one?

http://www.thunder-and-lightnings.co.uk/victor/b1axh648bombing.jpg

Credit to Thunder and Lightnings web site.

[Snakecharmer]

That's the one! Semi-complete fake... job wasn't even done in that airframe! Understand the load was dropped as a 'stick'.

[Ray Dahvectac]

If a Victor 'lost' 35,000 pounds of AUW in such a short space of time, would it still fly straight and level?? :hmm:

[Art Field]

Unless you worked like a one-armed paper hanger, the Victor never flew straight and level in manual whatever, bless her little crescent wings.

[Milt]

Effects of Releasing Heavy Stuff

Dropped the first dummy10,000 pounder from a Vulcan Mk1 for clearance purposes.

Expected more aircraft reaction. It was only a momentary small g excursion - hardly felt.

Watched that big mother go out of the weapon bay on closed circuit video as it dropped away gently rocking in pitch.

The drop of an extraction 20,000 pound load from a C130 was more of an event but still only transitory as the load rolled down the fuselage and over the ramp.

Then as a fighter jock I once dropped one of two 500 pounders from a Mustang in a 60 degree dive bomb attack on a T34 tank. The recovery from the dive came real close to doing me in. But I got the tank!

[GLIDER 90]

Was very fortunate to have had a trip in a Victor K2 XH672 whilst at Marham, went up for 3 hours 10 in a immersion suit over the north sea area 5, near RAF Leuchars as you well know refuelling 4x harriers from RAFG. I how understand how you lot must have felt in these conditions hour after hour!

Glider 90

[Tankertrashnav]

Gosh - 14 years after the previous post may not be a record, but it cant be far off.

I see that I didn't contribute to this thread the first time round, but it has been most interesting reading through it. I know it's not normal to reveal PPRuNers names as a rule, but I think I am ok to say that Art Field, who made many contributions, was the late Sqn Ldr Paul Gausden, a real gentleman and a great tanker pilot, with whom I had the pleasure of flying many times on Victor K1s on 214. I particularly liked this post of his:

How about standing in your porch, looking through the letter box, trying to land your house which allegedly lands itself, trying to stop it by opening the back door, which will often fall off and will then have to be put back on from a great height in the pouring rain and never quite fits.

Of course you had to get the darn thing airborne in the first place, if only Fred's Shed had actually put intakes in front of the Sapphires instead of more letter boxes then the multi ton budgie might have been less of of a concrete gobbler, thank goodness for the Mk2.

Concrete gobblers they certainly were, and a later comment of Paul's that the Victor wouldn't fly in a straight line no matter what you did was particularly true of XA 930 which had been at Farnborough for a few years, where it had been subjected to such indignities as being barrel rolled. This had resulted in a "bent" airframe and on a long straight leg you would gradually become aware of the fact the aircraft was proceeding in a very slow corkscrew, something which you sensed through the seat of your pants.

I spent nearly 6 years on the Victor, and while it would be an exaggeration to say I enjoyed every minute (two hours tanker/tanker work on Towline 2 palled after a while), as would 45 minutes in the circuit at the end of a trip (Pontifex please note!). I nevertheless really enjoyed my time on 214 and would do it all over again without hesitation (assuming I was 24 again!)

[Dan Winterland]

Great to see this thread resurrected. Love the comments about handling, particularly about it landing itself. I still get told this folklore as a point of fact. I gather it may have done once, when it was much lighter and had a longer fin. But after it was shortened to prevent the tail-plane from dropping off, this changed. It was quite challenging to fly, especially in the landing. And once you were on the ground, the next real adventure of stopping the thing began as it had the same brakes as a Morris Minor!

Glad I flew it though. And it's a great talking point when asked what I used to fly on long boring airliner flights. None of my FOs know what it is, so I have to show them a picture. "What the F#ck!" is the usual response.

[stumblefingers]

I have just read "Victor Boys" by Tony Blackman, which I can heartily recommend. However, it contains several factual errors, largely concerning dates, but another is regarding fuel jettison. The book contains an assertion that the Victor had no fuel jettison capability until the introduction of the K2, which is patently untrue as the SR2 had that facility long before the K2 came into service. As my only Victor experience was on 543, I don't know if the B2 shared that facility. Would any ex-100 or 139ers care to clarify the matter?

[MrBernoulli]

None of my FOs know what it is, so I have to show them a picture. "What the F#ck!" is the usual response.
The youngsters of today, eh Dan? They know so little about the aircraft of the Golden Era of aviation. ;)

The Victor was a grand ol' ship and we had some interesting adventures with her!

[Fitter2]

A retired ETPS graduate of my bar circle started his career on Valiants (which he said was a much underrated aeroplane), and flew a substatial number of trials in Victor and Vulcan; he is of the opinion that the Victor 2 was by far the best of the 3 Vs.

Also that the Nimrod was easily the best bomber for the Black Buck missions ....

[Tankertrashnav]

K1s and K2s also had the additional fuel jettison facility through the pods, of course, which I used on a couple of occasions. The main jettison position was only used in an emergency as the jettisoned fuel could contaminate electrical equipment in the unpressurised aft compartment. We once had an aircraft fueled to 40k lbs for a transit from Marham to Leuchars, but it went U/S on start up and the only alternative aircraft was fueled up to the max 86k. My flight commander captain was unwilling to wait for this one to be defueled, so we took it as was, and all the way up the North Sea I dumped 40k of fuel through the pods to get us down to landing weight (25k as I recall) at Leuchars. We could also use the pods to "mark" ie jettison a small amount to create a mini contrail to make ourselves more visible and assist the RV with the receiver, Nowadays we would no doubt be accused of creating chemtrails!

[Pontius Navigator]

I recall a Mk 1 with an engine failure on take off at Akrotiri. They started fuel jettison even before clearing the boundary fence and continued streaming thoughout the circuit. A tannoy forbade smoking on the base. The smell of avtur was everywhere. That was around 71-72

[topgas]

Few Cloudy - Before anyone could intervene there was a loud bang and strong smell of explosive exhaust in the cockpit. The hatch, which had, as it transpired, not been designed to blow with a pressurised cabin, stayed on. The aircraft did not depressurise.
Having got the by now white faced Radar back to his position and examined the damage (jacks partially torn from the structure - torque mechanism hadn't budged) the Captain returned to his seat.

Was there some sort of interlock to stop the seat firing if the canopy hadn't departed?

[Fareastdriver]

A different type but the Valiant had a jettison system.

The underwing tanks, each holding 12,500 lbs of fuel were designed to be jettisoned in toto. being a hangover from a project when they were thinking of using them as bomb bays.

There were three mushroom valves in the bottom of each tank which when opened released the fuel. In an emergency one could put combat nitrogen pressure in the tanks and they would unload 25,000lbs in about two minutes.

The checklist was very convenient because it stated that at REP 3, the initial letdown point, the underwings had to be cleared of residual fuel as none was permitted on landing. Depending on the time of day, bar opening hours, rear crews' opinion of circuit bashing a competent co-pilot like me could arrange a that a considerable amount of fuel could be left in the underwings when we arrived at the start of the letdown.

There were some fairly massive contrails over the coast of East Anglia.

[NRU74]

I recall a Mk 1 with an engine failure on take off at Akrotiri. They started fuel jettison even before clearing the boundary fence and continued streaming thoughout the circuit. A tannoy forbade smoking on the base. The smell of avtur was everywhere. That was around 71-72

Marham, early ‘73, co-pilot being checked by the ‘Standardisation’ pilot (Rod J)
Scheduled to go to a North Sea Towline, immediately after take off the examiner called Practice Engine Failure No 4 and called for flight idle no 4 - we did all that simulated stuff, staggered up to (was it) 1000 feet and did a GCA
AT 180 feet finals he said that he could land, called overshooting and called for full power on 1,2and 3- there was then a bang and the number three fire warning light came on.
This wasn’t looking too good as we were heavy and the Victor 1A wasn’t too good on 4 never mind three or fewer.
We dumped an enormous amount of fuel in the circuit thru’ the HDU and the port pod
We landed successfully and shut down on the runway.
There was a strong smell of aviation fuel in the vicinity.

[stumblefingers]

Sorry, I was just trying to find out if all the Mk 2s were capable of fuel jettison, or just the SR2s and K2s.

[ozleckie]

That's the one! Semi-complete fake... job wasn't even done in that airframe! Understand the load was dropped as a 'stick'.

Wrong!!!
I was a member of the bombing up team that loaded the 35x1000lb aboard XH-648 belonging to XV Sqn based at RAFCottesmore. We were on detachment to RAAF Butterworth in early 1964.The bombs were dropped on the Song Song bombing range about 60 mls from Penang. It was only the second time it had ever been done, the first was on acceptance. We had to rehearse the load a couple of times to get them all in after we had removed the long range tank.

The photo was taken from an 81 Sqn Canberra from RAF Tengah flying alongside and I understand that it is a still from a PR camera.To get the bombs that close together the Jettison selection would have been made on the 12/24 way bomb system.This gave a spacing of about 0.1 sec if memory serves.

About 3 days later the Sqn Armament Officer showed us the photo and of course we all wanted one but it had been designated Secret and it was a few years before the photo was published widely.

[Heathrow Harry]

there's a whole thread on that picture somewhere on here .......................................

https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/588910-victor-conventional-bomber.html

[Dan Winterland]

Sorry, I was just trying to find out if all the Mk 2s were capable of fuel jettison, or just the SR2s and K2s.

B2s were. The fuel jettison point on the K2 was in the tail cone and looked a bit like a bum hole. If the drop tanks were fitted, then they could jettison fuel as well. And on the K2, the pods too - giving that aircraft 5 points to dump from. I have a set of B2 Blue Steel pilot's notes which mentions dumping from the fuselage but I don't know where the exit point was. It was not in the tail cone as this was occupied by the rear aspect radar. The notes it was important to ensure that adjacent electrical equipment was turned off. This obviously refers to the rear radar and ECM.

[MPN11]

Sole memories [from ATC] of the Victor from Tengah were:

Early morning departure, otherwise they couldn't get airborne from 9,000 ft.
Crash Crew on standby to untangle the upwind Barrier after 'it' had got airborne [just].
Local Controller with finger poised over the Crash alarm anyway.

[Frostchamber]

As it's a Victor thread i can't resist linking to this little Pathe gem from 1964, complete with inimitable Bob Danvers-Walker commentary. Bit of a howler in the first 10 seconds though... https://www.britishpathe.com/video/tree-top-bombers-aka-new-v-bombers-have-blue-steel/query/raf+victor (https://www.britishpathe.com/video/tree-top-bombers-aka-new-v-bombers-have-blue-steel/query/raf+victor)

[The Oberon]

As it's a Victor thread i can't resist linking to this little Pathe gem from 1964, complete with inimitable Bob Danvers-Walker commentary. Bit of a howler in the first 10 seconds though... https://www.britishpathe.com/video/tree-top-bombers-aka-new-v-bombers-have-blue-steel/query/raf+victor (https://www.britishpathe.com/video/tree-top-bombers-aka-new-v-bombers-have-blue-steel/query/raf+victor)

Interesting film, I have never seen the official method of loading a BS onto a Victor. In reality it was quicker and easier to leave the bomb bay side fairings in place and jack the A/C up on the main and tail jacks, 37 ins. to be precise. The BS was then trolleyed in, hoisted up and checked out before the loaded A/C was lowered off jacks.

[Ka-2b Pilot]

Had just two flights in a Victor, XH591 in the jump seat from Tengah to Butterworth and return, to repair a Red Steer fault in another of our aircraft, in 1965. The outward trip was in the morning and low-level all the way, very low through the mountains while the pilots were taking photos, then we were called to help out the police with a pirate ship attacking a merchant vessel in the Malacca straits, a common occurrence back then, and we flew low and slow just above the waves towards the pirates ship and saw the crew jumping overboard from a Chinese junk before we opened up and climbed away. It was reported that the junk had capsized and police launches were picking up the crew. Return was at night and my mic failed before take-off so I borrowed a spare mask from one of the crew in the back, I only remember one was S/L Milne, our CO. Should have been high level but a loud pop at about 20,000' on the climb was identified as a cracked windscreen so we depressurised and levelled off and I had to hold the mask to my face to keep the oxygen dolls-eye blinking as it was a bad fit. I recall a comment just before we landed that we were close to Indonesian (enemy) airspace at one point. I believe the B1As were limited to 55,000'.

[MPN11]

Indonesian airspace was about 14 miles final approach for rw 36 at Tengah. This rather compressed the radar traffic patterns when things were busy! Oh, and the inevitable 'Point Bravo' 16 nm south-west (Tanjung Piai) where everyone arrived at high speed bleating about fuel priority :)

[Pontius Navigator]

Ka-2b pilot, I think it would have been earlier than 1965 as we replaced the Victors in Sep-Oct 64.

[MPN11]

Ka-2b pilot, I think it would have been earlier than 1965 as we replaced the Victors in Sep-Oct 64.To which "we" do you refer? Victor tankers infested Tengah in the late 60s! :)

[Pontius Navigator]

MPN, Chamfrom. The Valiant tankers were still in the AOBAT until Jan 65 and into 66 Fighter Command had access to KC135 under Exercise Billy Boy IIRC.

[Pontius Navigator]

The Vulcan fleet had just one car door key for the whole fleet - FA501. What did the Victor fleet have? Was it one key for all marks?

Valiant anyone?

[ZH875]

There were 2 different keys for the Vulcan. One was indeed the FA501. IIRC the ex Blue Steel aircraft used a different number.
Most of the locks were so worn by the end that almost anything would open them, including the key for my push bike chain lock.

[ian16th]

The Vulcan fleet had just one car door key for the whole fleet - FA501. What did the Victor fleet have? Was it one key for all marks?

Valiant anyone?

As far as I can remember, the Valiant keys were all different.
Each Crew Chief had his own.
But you could buy them in Halfords!

[Pontius Navigator]

Ian, that would have been fun trying to keep tabs on them. Imagine running to your aircraft -wrong key. Maybe why they went for one on the Vulcan.

[racingrigger]

Seem to recall that a "Romac(?) FGS 50 key was a like a master key and fitted most of the older British aircraft (to my own knowledge it more often than not worked on Valiants, Domminies, Canberras and Andovers) and indeed British cars as well in the days before we got all sophisticated and fitted steering locks etc

[Tankertrashnav]

I still have the ignition key to my 1937 Austin Seven which is a small rectangular section. My then girlfriend sometimes used to use her nail file to start the car.