Fighter Controllers?

[SandyPit]

Is the FC "logo" worn by fighter controllers a Brevet or a flying badge?

Any ideas or thoughts?

I'm going for badge myself.

[MAD Boom]

Badge!!

As is the Airborne Tech, Chief Steward, and Air Steward joke wings. You guys and girls would look so much better in orange, so go join Easyjet- you get a proper name badge and everything!! At least there would be some desert flying kit for the real brevet wearers!!

Bu**er, I think I just dropped the pin to this grenade!!

BOOM!

[SandyPit]

yep

def a badge!! Surely you have to be trained on a FTS to qualify for a Brevet?

[Maple 01]

Sandy pit, do you mean the guys with 'N' on their brevets, as in 'Not got a job in fast jets?'

Or the other Eazyjet/Ryanair fodder, the ones that sit up front, who, if persuing their trade on the ground, would be described as 'MT drivers?':ok:

-nick

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

It would appear that failing Aircrew selection has left you feeling a little bitter:( ...........and with a non aircrew job:E

all spelling mistakes are "df" alochol induced

[Maple 01]

Am I that transparent?;)

Roll on a totally UAV airforce!

-nick

'I don't care how many times they go up tiddly up up, they're still gits'

E Blackadder 1917

[ORAC]

Best they rush down and sign up now then; 'cos when they cancel the MR4 and downsize the rest of the Kipper fleet, there's going to a long queue for the jobs down at Ronnie Mac's.......

p.s. You must be really bored Sandy, two attempted wind ups on the same page, and not even original....

[Frogbox]

Never before have I heard such crap. How can the position of FC be berated in such a fashion.

For comedy value:

Example: - FJ female Nav chopped from 56 is instantly placed on a
E3 conversion course. What the f**k does any FJ know about FC?? (aploogies to the individual - victim of circumstance).

Get a life pal!

Fortunately most people in the RAF can't be so anally retentive to post threads such as this. If you made even the most basic of efforts to witness what the FC world is about then maybe views would be modified.


Disgust!

:yuk: :yuk: :yuk: :yuk: :yuk: :yuk: :yuk:

[Yeller_Gait]

Nice bite Frogbox ...

though trying to say that a chopped FJ nav is necessarily of comparable ability to a qualified FC somewhat undermines your arguement.

I take it you have got the been there, seen it, done it, tick at Waddington and are now back at the Neat outpost in Norfolk? Or maybe not?

[CatpainCaveman]

SandyPit

In answer to your question - yes they do have their own FC brevet - and to those who may mock - after quite a hard 6-ish month OCU on 23 Sqn.

However the real issue is - I hope you're not planning on getting on E3s any time soon?

As someone that escaped the FC assylum a couple of years ago, I can see a re-run of the situation I was in late90s/early00s - lots of Navs / AEOs in desk jobs but still getting flying pay, so they stuck them down the back of the jet to make them earn their pay.

At a stroke 25% of the surveillance team slots went to rear-seaters overnight. Result lots of unhappy FCs stuck down the east coast waiting for the Ruskies. Can see the same thing happening with the current "re-organisation" when we end up with more aircrews than we can use.

But if that's what you're after, good luck mate, it aint a bad job. Oh and the currys you get on there are pretty decent too!

[Yeller_Gait]

Nice of you to join us Capt Caveman,

Given that the E3 fleet is trying to go up to approx 15 crews (over the next few years), I would suggest that there are plenty of spare slots available in all crew positions, and I also understand that there are very few volunteers in the system waiting for SO from the ground side .... however if the expected Nav rush materialises

And as for a "hard 6-ish month OCU on 23 Sqn" well maybe that is the case for FC's.

BTW ... are we allowed to call it an OCU (like most other a/c types in the RAF) or does it have to remain as STF/SCC or whatever the current name for it is?

Any comments anyone?

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

CC,

"In answer to your question - yes they do have their own FC brevet - and to those who may mock - after quite a hard 6-ish month OCU on 23 Sqn.:}

6 months to badge...........if only real aircrew could achieve this......to quote Louis Armstrong........What a wonderful World:ok:

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[Wockney Canker]

I was always under the impression that a Brevet could only be awarded by a Flying Training School (3 FTS etc..) and as an OCU does not constitute this then FCs do indeed wear flying badges not Brevets.

Knees up Mother Brown!

[Straight Flush]

I agree with ABIW. If only the real aircrew could get their brevet (cuz that's what ours are!!) in as short a time as a 6 month OCU. Some of us endure 2-3 years to gain fully combat ready and these guys dare say they are up to speed and flying badged in 6 months. Surely this makes a mocury of the whole FTS system??

[Badger Brush]

Maybe it's time to bring these imitation aircrew into line and send them to Cranners to do proper aircrew courses. It worked for the siggies.

[SandyPit]

CaptainCaveman,
Whilst I'm not seeking a posting to E3s, there's every possibility that I could be posted there in a few years. Who knows? If I do, then I'll be sure to give you a shout.

[ORAC]

I always considered that the qualification was what people did when we went to war, not what school they went to. It would be interesting to compare the average number of hours of combat experience, involved in wartime ops, of the E-3D force and those at ISK.

I heard much of the same talk, by the way, many years ago from those on the Britannia fleet, and then the V-force.....

Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Though wise men at their end know dark is right,
Because their words had forked no lightning they
Do not go gentle into that good night.

Good men, the last wave by, crying how bright
Their frail deeds might have danced in a green bay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Wild men who caught and sang the sun in flight,
And learn, too late, they grieved it on its way,
Do not go gentle into that good night.......

Dylan Thomas

[Straight Flush]

ORAC

Are we to deduce that you are yourself one of the controversial flying badge wearers?? You seem to be defending the trade with bravado. I think you'll find that you guys may well have more time
in live combat operations
but the boys in ISK don't sit at high level, going round in circles being pre madonna's. The time spent on real ops by the Kipper fleet unfortunately has been done by a minority of the fleet. The Mighty Hunter has more crews than the flying smarty so they individually do spend less time on ops.

[Mad_Mark]

If only the real aircrew could get their brevet (cuz that's what ours are!!) in as short a time as a 6 month OCU. Some of us endure 2-3 years to gain fully combat ready and these guys dare say they are up to speed and flying badged in 6 months. Surely this makes a mocury of the whole FTS system??
Not bothered either way about FC's in the air, however I don't like to see fellow (real) aircrew talking out of their arrogant ar$es and making us all look like idiots, as happens all to often in here :mad:

What you seem to forget is that comparing the FC 6 month OCU to aircrew full training time is misleading. FC's still have to go through professional training prior to starting their OCU, just like the rest of us. Probably their training isn't as long as real aircrew branches/trades, but then no 2 branches/trades train for exactly the same length of time.

I agree though, FC's wear badges, not brevets :ok:

MadMark!!! :mad:

[ORAC]

SF, no I'm not. I've never set foot on a UK E-3D and only ever visited Waddo a couple of times. I also retired several years ago. I Just find the continual whinging, carping and criticism from certain quarters both boring and pathetic.

I haven't the experience or expertise to comment and compare the ability, or experience, of the two forces. But I note it is always the ISK guys doing the knocking of other serving RAF personnel, who seem to be fulfilling a vital role, and doing so extremely well.

The end effect is to diminish my respect for the ISK force and increase that of the Waddo force. I'm afraid Sandy and his ilk are doing the reputations of themselves and their fleet no favours here.

[left one o clock]

Can't let this one go guys.
Having taught both FCs, Navs and AEOps on the SCC at Waddo I can say without reservation that they all bring something useful to the party. Without wanting to sound pompous, the UK Sentry fleet is the best in the world BECAUSE of its diverse manning structure.
As to the 'legitimacy' or otherwise of FC and AT brevets, these guys and gals do not get their BREVETS simply for 6 months work, they get them for 6 months work on top of the years of proffesional training and experience that has fitted them to their roles on the E3.
It is important to be aware that the job on the Sentry, while no harder or complex than many other airborne missions, is a very specific role, and as such, needs manning (in some areas) by people with different skills to more 'traditional' aircrew. Navs and AEOps do not have the skills for instance, to conduct AD ac control, nor CAS ac control, nor the direction of jamming and surveillance ac and (outside of the RN and possibly F3 fleets) only FCs have an in-depth knowledge of data links. They've been using them for 20 years. This is not to suggest that more 'traditional' aircrew do not bring other (equally valid) skills of course.
I fully expect people to reply with arguments citing VASTAC and FAC etc. These are not valid comparisons, and only further demonstrate the widely shared lack of knowledge about the Sentry's role.
FCs and ATs fully deserve their BREVETS, and are the only people for the job. Discussions about whether or not they are 'aircrew' are semantics and demeen us.
I have no vested interest in the success of either FC or AT branches, and fly a very different ac.

[Maple 01]

I wouldn't bite on this too much.......

I think you'll find Sandy Pit was only opening up a can of worms for comic effect to pass a dull det - stag on mate- as our army chums say

-Nick

[ORAC]

it's amazing how some attempt to excuse the boorish and offensive as humour.

Hey, it was only a joke, right?

[Maple 01]

I think they meant their comments in jest, they just haven't got the idea of humour yet......benefit of doubt and all that

-Nick

[The Swinging Monkey]

Left 1 OC

I am with you on this one.
My only whinge is the unfairness of the system, as pertaining to FC's (but that is NOT their fault)

Those of us who are 'professional full time aircrew' (for want of a better term) have all spent a MINIMUM of 1 years flying training. We have ALL done at least 2 recognised survival courses, and at the end of that, the guys STILL do not get their respective brevets until they have successfully completed their OCU etc. That is OK, and although I don't particularly agree with the need to complete an OCU before hand, if thats the rules - fine.

Where things fall down is that the FC's DO NOT spend at least 12 months at a flying school, they DO NOT complete 2 survival courses, but they DO get their brevets on completion of the SCC. That is wrong, and it is this that causes so much ill feeling (I know they subsequently do a sort of survival course, but hey so what!)

The other thing that gets peoples goat, is that when these FC's leave the fleet and go off back to a hole, they still RETAIN their flying pay! (well a lot do, maybe not all) We all know the case of the Fg Off FC who joined the fleet many years ago, who is now a Gp capt, and has yet to lose his Fg Pay!!

I have nothing against the FC world - the majority of them are great blokes and girls, and I had no qualms about flying with them. Their 'problem' is that someone high up is 'looking after' them too well, and it is causing a lot of ill feeling amongst the 'professional' aircrew No offence meant.

Kind regards
The Swinging Monkey

[Top Bunk Tester]

Just a thought...........Do PJIs wear a badge or a brevet?:*

[StopStart]

Surely it's a "label"?

[Frogbox]

MadMark

couldn't agree more! Typically it can take 2 years to train a FC to combat ready status (this is continuation training once they are let loose on their own), meaning they can deal with any mission thrown at them. A SNCO WC has usually spent many years working in TG12 and has a good deal of experience.

It would appear that time spent at Cranwell on a course pales in comparison. In addtion to FCs the mob wants man managers and that takes know-how, not spotty herberts who join the ranks of the Mess.

We are in a fortunate position to have some very positive and caring characters in senior positions. In my 18 years in a blue suit these people have been a very refreshing change from the nest-feathering that can often occur.

Bites and giggles.


Viva la revolution.

[Runaway Gun]

At the end of the day, regardless of their time of training, these Guys In Back are highly trained professionals. They've achieved the standards required in their training, and their skills will improve with experience. They are valued members of a large team, and should be treated as such, in my opinion.

[round&round]

Just a quick submission to stop a gross mis-understanding quoted by swinging monkey.

There is not a single FC on a ground tour getting FP. The instant an FC leaves a flying appointment the additional pay is stopped. If an FC is posted to a flying-related postwhich requires them to fly, they are only paid flying pay on the days they actually fly and then have to present their log books and have them countersigned. Innsworth always cock the pay up so most are very reluctant to go through the humilating and laborious process.

The FC branch does not have a single Gp Capt that has flown on E-3s. We have 4 Wg Cdrs with E-3 experience and these are all on ground tours and do not get FP.

Finally, the E-3 FC cadre most definately does not benefit from high level support. If you were aware of some suggested or on-going "initiatives" from the powers that be you would feel deeply ashamed at the crassness of your comments. E-3 FC morale is low and falling. They might not be "professional full time aircrew" but they can still read the big writing on the walls, and it doesn't say make yourself welcome!!

[eagles70]

To all the guys fighting the corner for FCs thanks..... As for the rest of the moaners out their you lot obviously do not understand what service we provide to multiple aircraft types (oh wait a moment, thats what you guys fly in isnt it???). This is not just the Controllers but the Surveillance half of the branch also, who after 6 months on the SCC can produce the the same high standard and in some cases better than the the professional aircrew types who have done 2 years professional flying training.... mmmmmmm does this tell you something???

Anyway, thats all from me.... just chill out folks.... oh and by the way if people ask what i doi reply 'im mission crew' and not aircrew if that makes you all feel better!!

Caio E70

[MobiusTrip]

I was frequently very impressed with those dudes down at Yeovilton ('Freddie'?). Generally never that impressed with the AWACS controllers (but I don't know what kit limitations they have - I've never seen their kit, not that I'd know what good kit would look like if i saw it!). They're both generalisations of course - I know they each contain 'the good and the bad'.

I had a go FCing once (in a hole somewhere) and I made a complete balls of it. The real controller sat next to me was doing more hand (and foot I suppose) movements per second than I used to do in the fin during BFM. Ok, perhaps that says more about my BFM...

Does it really really matter how long a course was and if it's a brevet or a badge - I mean really? I've never really noticed people at work getting wrapped around the axle about it too much.

Wasn't there some banter a while back about an F3 nav going over to be a FC (or was it the other way round)?

MT

[bullseye control]

I cant believe the rubbish that has been posted on this thread. There are some very short memories can anybody remind me which RAF airframe has probably conducted more Ops than any other in recent times? I think you will find it is the E3D manned by FC's (and others). If any crew regardless of branch deserves to wear a brevet surely the E3D guys and girls are up there with the best.
Their tireless support of Ops proves that fact!! Dont forget we count you all in, and out again, providing the best support we can. At the end of the day, you can always operate without our support or then again just use a plain old E3A/B/C/F whose reputation speaks for its self. We may only do a six month conversion but our operational performance speaks for itself!!!

[MobiusTrip]

bc

I should have distinguished between the E3 types, my broad brush 'AWACS' line was, according to my hindsightoscope, prolly a 'bit' much of a generalisation.

Quote:

"Dont forget we count you all in, and out again, providing the best support we can."

I don't think many would argue with that statement. We are all on the same side (aren't we?).

MT

[Frogbox]

BC

ballsy response considering it's your first; gutsy handle too! At least we know the personal trauma that life on the E3 causes. Dare I say stuff the narrow minded clowns that treat GCI like s**t. Lost count of the amount of time I've waited and waited and waited for you know what.


Big focus on briefs/debriefs at the mo', if the sky-gods don't give a damn, what hope is there for us.

Rgds

PS - watch out for that rotary traffic!

[CatpainCaveman]

Never thought I'd find myself sticking up for the FC world, but as has been pointed out, to even get to Waddo they have to do upwards of 2yrs training then several tours and then they only get there if judged good enough to go - well that's the theory anyway.

Who cares what they wear, whether it's a badge or a brevet, they do a hard job well.

However if you really want to moan about un-earned brevets -
Whatabout the Int Corps getting a brevet for an 8 week attendance course on ASTOR. I know a few of them and they are chuffed to bits to get something aircrew work years for - they now think getting a brevet is easy. And they think that there will eventually be an Army Lt Col running 5 Sqn.

Comments, suggestions, explosions ........ How's that for throwing a hand grenade into the converation!!!

[Oggin Aviator]

CC - nice post.

To all the FCs up at Waddo - say hi to the RN Sea King mate halfway through 23 - he is one of my ex studes and a top bloke with a smashing better half. Be kind to him and someone point out where Tampa Bay is - obviously his knowledge of geography needs addressing :ok:

[Yeller_Gait]

round& round,



Finally, the E-3 FC cadre most definately does not benefit from high level support. If you were aware of some suggested or on-going "initiatives" from the powers that be you would feel deeply ashamed at the crassness of your comments. E-3 FC morale is low and falling. They might not be "professional full time aircrew" but they can still read the big writing on the walls, and it doesn't say make yourself welcome!!

Have to agree with you on this one, as an outsider looking in on the FC branch I think that it is completely wrong that the majority of FC's that come to Waddington have to "give up" on further promotion and service due to the fact that if promoted to FS they are likely to get a ground posting, lose their flying pay and take a pay freeze due to the fact that they go from higher rate Sgt to low rate FS pay scale. What kind of a way is that to treat those that want to do well? Still, if you like living down a hole and enjoy 4 months in the Falklands on a regular basis perhaps it is not so bad.

[The Swinging Monkey]

R & R

If what you say is NOW correct, then I retract my comments, however, during the 8 years or so I did on the fleet, there were loads of FC's who went away back to the ground and DID retain their flying pay. If you are so much in the know, you will be only too well aware of the furore when PMA tried to recover the money from them!!??

As for the Gp Capt, is the famous (or maybe infamous?) JP not a Gp capt? Heard that he had RTB Waddo on promotion (albeit in the 'funny farm')

Lastly, you say that 'the E-3 FC cadre most definately does not benefit from high level support' What utter tosh Sir! I don't blame you for it, but someone very high up is most definately looking after the FC interests on the E-3D. I do not blame the FC's for that, good luck to them!. Your problem is , if you want to play with the big boys, you must abide by the big boys rules or face the wrath of them later, ie recognised survival courses BEFORE graduation - et al Blah!

Kind regards to all
The Swinging Monkey

[SandyPit]

Hey come on girls!! Bitchy bitchy!!

I only put this on for a bit of banter and friendly rivalry! Brevet or badge, yeah, who gives a toss, but I thought we might see some more wit in replies etc.

I'm chalking up kinloss 2 Waddo 0. Who's gonna go for the new thread to turn it around?

[timzsta]

I was one of the "Freddies" at Yeovilton in my former life. A fighter formation will usually be able to find the enemy unaided. What the FC does is tell you about the guy you didnt see on your radar - and thus save your life.

To those who knock FC's - I suggest you go to the ACMI at Waddington and have a try at controlling a 16 v 8 and see for yourselves just how hard a job it can be. I always thought the RAF's problem was not enough face to face aircrew / controller debrief, which was one of the RN's strengths and why us SHAR Squadron "D''s" were such good controllers.

As an aside I would love to hear from some of my ex RN FC mates, inparticular "Elvis", "Pepsi", "JC", "Toby", "Stevie C" (RAF Exchange) and the legendary "Maureen". Would love to hear from ex 801 people "Ackle" "Pebbles" "Ridge" "Budget" "Chisel" "Parts" "Benny" "Swampy" "Debbie" and off course "Pikey".

ATPL nearly finished - "Parts" I owe you a beer as I understand you got your half stripe before I got my ATPL!!!

[teeteringhead]

Badge or Brevet? I hate to get into pedantic git mode [no, I quite like it really], but does noone read QRs (no, of course they don't!). They are all flying badges except PJI (note lower case) - QR 206 refers.

The Flying Badge (note Capitals) is the one worn by we of the TWMR (two-winged master race). All others with one wing are brevets - the etymolgy should give it away, the brevets are abbreviated versions, whatever letters they have - even RAF on the new ones.

And btw bullseye control , I believe I can answer your question:There are some very short memories can anybody remind me which RAF airframe has probably conducted more Ops than any other in recent times?

It's the aircraft with two rotating devices on the roof, not one, and it answers to the name of Chinook...........

[Mad_Mark]

It's the aircraft with two rotating devices on the roof, not one, and it answers to the name of Chinook...........

..........and the one with 4 turbo-props on the wings, and the one with 2 jets either side of the tail and hoses hanging out the back, and the one with 2 jets in either wing route (both variants).

MadMark!!! :mad:

[Angler]

Dear Monkey,
JP is moving fast, but not that fast. Still a Wg Cdr at last sighting. As for the flying pay, it always did stop on posting. The demands for over-payment fell into two categories: those that forgot to notify PMA and those that were posted into jobs that included flying duties in their TORs. The forgetful bunch repaid, as they should have. The complaints came from those who had thought that they were rightfully entitled to flying pay by being annotated as airborne evaluator/assessors for the NAEW&CF Eval Team. Those posts had been drawing flying pay for several years before a petulent knee-jerk reaction from someone who couldn't stand the idea.............

[FFP]

Slightly off topic . . . .. . . . . .

Have lost touch with one of the front enders up at Waddo who I guess would be the lowest rank there at the moment (P/O or F/O ?) Quiet guy but nice chap. Any one recognise the description can you get him on PPrune ?

Cheers

[Yeller_Gait]

FFP,

Not sure we have that many F/O front enders, certainly not P/O's. Can only think of one F/O right now, initials similar to an RAF rank.

That who you thinking of?

[FFP]

That`s the one !!!!

Just wanted to hear he was still there and doing ok ? A good lad who works hard. Not your average p!$$ed up F/O but he knows that too !

I like him.

[The Swinging Monkey]

Angler,

good to hear old 'Skinny' is still alive and kicking!

Now then, about your comments: 'those that forgot to notify PMA and those that were posted into jobs that included flying duties in their TORs'

Well, lets start with the first one. Since when has the individual been responsible for notifying PMA about where PMA had posted them? don't understand that one.

and flying duties in their TOR? hum, there lies the problem me thinks..... the vast majority of FC's, particularly the commissioned bretherin, believed that as Officers like professional aircrew, they might one day need to return to flying duties, when this was clearly not to be. The other slight problem there is that many of the senior FC's that I knew who were returning to the ground, were writing, or at least amending their own TORs, clearly for their own benefit!!

Now come on, lets face it; most FC's are good guys and galls and I have no qualms about flying with them etc. They are professional and keen and do an outstanding job. The problem lies however in the perception that many of them have that they are full-time professional aircrew, which they are not.

If thats what they want to do fine, but they should go thru' the same selection process blah as the rest of us have done.

Rant over
Kind regards & Regards to Skinny

The Swinging Monkey

You and I will well know of the numerous FC's that returned to bunkers, still getting FP, and in a lot of cases it was NOT recovered!

[Frogbox]

What's a bit of flyimg pay that's gone astray? Hardly worth a mention.

What is though, new pay grades - Spec Aircrew with 16+ yrs £50 and coppers a day! What the **** .............