RAF Tristar crew uniform

[DC10RealMan]

I apologise for a mere civilian intruding on such an august forum, but I was watching a TV programme recently and it showed the crew of an RAF Tristar routing to the Falkland Islands and they were wearing or appeared to be wearing green flying suit/overall "thingys". If so, is this common practice and why?, as I remember the L1011s in BA service in the 1980s when I was at LHR and they were quite civilised to fly.

[Phoney Tony]

I think they wear flying suites to appear more tactical/ operational.

Nice try. But no bannana!

The suits are baggy and have the usual extra bits hanging off the legs etc.

I watched a young lass walking down the isle with a teapot full of hot drink catching her flying suit on the seats etc. Every time her suite snagged it jarred her body causing drink to spill. Luckily only on a pong.

I am surprised H&S has not stopped them from wearing clothing which is not ideal for the job.

A smart set of No 2 uniform would surfice.

[Maple 01]

Recommend Crew to wear BOAC style uniforms on SA run, Esp stewardesses, Excellent for PAX morale (esp on return to Blighty). Pilots to have deep booming voices, firm handshakes, 1,000s hours on type and silvering hair inspiring more confidence than 14 year-old ATC cadets with Junior Jet Club wings that fly the route from time to time........;)

-Nick

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

M1...........birds in skirts:E ....how very "unPC".............cracking idea tho' grommet:p

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[MobiusTrip]

DC10RealMan,

You don't have to apologise - you are not 'intruding'. Unlike the 'closed' mil sites, this site is open to all.

Live long and prosper,

MT

[DC10RealMan]

I am still a little bemused!. The RAF crews wear the green "thingys" because they are "cool" or is there a practical military type reason?. I would have thought that a shirt and tie with standard RAF type uniform was quite suitable for quasi-airline route flying or I am being simplistic?.

[ZH875]

As everyone knows, it takes a major life threatening operation to remove aircrew from their gro-bags.

Unfortunately, the military hospitals have all but gone, and the NHS simply cannot afford the operation or the long term usage of an intensive care bed.

Thus no matter what aircraft or desk they fly, romper suits will always be worn by aircrew.

[November4]

They used to wear normal uniform until the RAF started to do more operational flying. It was blues (white shirt) for non-op flts and growbags for Op flts apart from SA runs - they were op but routine. More for the Gulf / FRY flights.

Then because of flt safety and aircrew must wear grow bags, blues were binned and grow bags were the standard. Nothing to do with a Station Commander arriving in blues when it was an op flt and he should have been in grow bag!!

On a flight safety issue though.....imagine having an emergency and trying to see the cabin crew amongst a full pax load of troops all wearing green. At least in blues as with civi cabin crews, you tend to be recognisable and easily identifiable in an emergency.

[ZH875]

They used to wear normal uniform until the RAF started to do more operational flying We must have a lot of desks doing operational sorties in the offices where I work, camouflaged to look like they never leave the building. Good stuff these stealth desks

[Reichman]

Don't blame the workers on the shop floor for having to wear flying suits in an airliner and combat gear in an office. Blame the idiot Air ranking officer who's brilliant idea it was.

[Old Bus Driver]

During my time on the TriStar we switched from wearing No2 uniform (Blue short sleeve shirt & trousers) to wearing flying suits. Most of the Sqn were fairly unhappy with the decision, which I seem to remember was driven by the Brize Station Commander of the time. He had come from 101 Sqn, were they wore flying suits all of the time, and decreed the other Sqns should do the same when he became the staish.

Disadvantages:

As already mentioned, in an emergency the cabin crew don't stand out amongst all the troops down the back.

For a long time the cabin crew could not obtain flying suits from clothing stores and resorted to sharing them or wearing combat 95. This made them look even more like the passengers

The demand from Brize clothing stores to the RAF supply system for flying suits went through the roof. I presume costs soared as a flying suit costs a lot more than shirt & trousers.

No matter how new and smart your flying suit, you still look like a garage mechanic when walking through an international airport. This made getting through the crew only immigration and customs gate a little more difficult on occassion.

Advantages:

Only one that I can think of - you don't have to do any ironing down route!

Still who are we to question our lords and masters.

;)

[DC10RealMan]

I was the one who asked the original question. I understand that it was a "fashion statement" by a station commander at Brize Norton, but he must have had a more valid reason, mustnt he?. I can understand how it might cause a few problems with security though, particularly in the USA with the TSA in this post Sept 11th age!.

[DP Harvey]

Realman, that station commander obviously thought the simple concept of "uniformity" across his crews' clothing, regardless of role and theatre, superceeded all other factors. Doubtless, such intuitive thinking has now earned him a place even higher in the decision making corridors of power.....

[fesc]

It think you'll find that most all of that 3* Sqn would like to wear blues.

I have a thought tho... When a stwd goes to the toilet whilst on the ac (and has to sitdown). Does the flying suit not rest on the floor? Having sat on one of those huge ac with 250+ people on and seen the state of the floors of the toilets after 6 hours. Is it not unreasonable to assume that the suits are 'more than a bit' dirty (especially the cuffs). Is it then fair to say that these same stwds will be waking you up to serve your meal.:yuk: :yuk: :yuk:

[brakedwell]

I still dream about the Shiny Fleet with their Prickett rings of confidence, the Whispering Giants and Changi KD. Lady Q's in pale blue dresses and cheerful pilots with tea stained trousers. Those good old days will never be forgotten says he sighly deeply as he runs a hand through thinning grey hair.

[BEagle]

Is it the wearing of blues per se, or the idea of wearing something less scruffy than a growbag which appeals?

Perhaps a smarter growbag?

[brit bus driver]

What a double-edged sword! When I first arrived on the 3* (long before OBD;) ) No2s were the order of the day for all sorties/trips, except TACEVAL (halcyon days...) I fear that I am partly to blame for helping to instigate the wearing of fg suits. Midway through a Flying Fish trail, in Colombo, the crews of the 2 VC10 tankers, 8 F3s, a couple of Nimrods and a smattering of Herc types were all awaiting transport from the same hotel, all in fg suits. Cue arrival of TriStar crew, correctly adorned in No2 dress, to the murmurings of "British Airways military division" etc etc. Sometimes it's not enough to be good, you have to look the part too in order to be considered as part of the team; surely that's the purpose of a uniform? On our return, I suggested to the then OC216 that fg suits for trails might be more appropriate.

Why wear them on all tasks? A question equally applicable to the VC10 fleet, the C-17s (very shiny), etc etc. For me, it saves the ironing, and I don't have to buy a new fg suit when it wears out, as was the case with wearing blues.

As for security delays, the rest of the world's air forces seem to do all right in flying suits. I think BEagle hit the mark with the fact that our suits are so poorly made. I think the latest incarnation is an improvement, but it's a different bloody colour! Add to that a range of shades of green for ones cold wx jacket, DPM for those who cannot get a cold wx jacket, or do not wish to wear one, blue leather jackets for the tarts (sorry BEagle
:cool: ), yellow high vis vests for those who can't be bothered to take them off when they leave the aircraft and you do indeed have the proverbial bag of $hit. Perhaps someone up the chain needs to read the definition of the word uniform and start applying it.

Right, what was the point of this?

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Blue is for blunties..........Nuff said:}

Smartbloke,

Not sure about the rest of the AT fleet but in the wilds of wilts we encounter admin flights as often as pre school children step in rocking horse sh!t:p

With that in mind it stands to reason that as the majority of our work is in support of Op's and Ex flights this means the wearing of our ill fitting, thread hanging grow bags is perfectly reasonable, not withstanding the GASO that states it's "what we is to/are to wear"

In the current global climate there is no fu@kin "purely passenger role" as we are always carrying some fuc@in contentious articles, normally armed to the teeth pongo's, so lets at least attempt to look military and make the best use of the sh!te we are provided with:ok:

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[Blacksheep]

I recall the Red Sparrers ground crew arriving in the gourmet other ranks restaurant at a place not very far from Lincoln. They were wearing flying suits. The WO i/c the airmen's mess ordered them out for wearing overalls and told them to get changed. They came back in their official 'mufti' of grey flannels and blazers and very smart they looked too. The moral of the story I suppose is that the troops should wear the appropriate clothing for the function they are performing. Flying suits for flying, suits for lounging and swimming suits for swimming - isn't that what civilisation is all about? Good Lord, we'll have people knocking on the door when one is not 'at home' next!

[Runaway Gun]

Those guys and girls in the RAF C-17's sure have better flying suits...

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Aint that a fact.........but look where they were made:ok:

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[Runaway Gun]

I guess with the British Pound being so strong compared to the US dollar, it'd be best to buy them up bigtime ASAP...

[brakedwell]

A 1960's entry in the Luqa Transit Mess suggestion book went - Suggest the bar be pressurised to make the V Force crews feel at home. Even then flying suits were causing a certain amount of controversy.

[Boy_From_Brazil]

As some of you are aware, RAF C17 crews are only allowed to wear kit that has been certified by Boeing, ie USAF issue. I think you will find the quality of the growbag isn't that much better than the Brit issued kit. It certainly isn't as practical. However, the rest of the uniform is definately better.

Almost all AT crews are on Ops, it is common sense to wear flying suits not blues.

BFB

[Brain Potter]

There are a couple of practical issues about the wearing of blues:

1. The cabin crew are the ones who will have to deal with any fire or hazardous substance. Would you be the man who takes them out of protective clothing and puts them back into polyester? I know such events are unlikely and airline crews face the same possibility, but I would not like to be on the end of a law suit because the protective clothing already in use was removed. (Enhanced Body Armour debacle)

2. Blues are not suitable for cold climates. For example, whilst flagging Goose between 2 temperate locations there are no suitable additional outer layers. The jumper (whichever is the latest style for this season!), the silly 1980's style jacket or the horrible nylon cagoule-type thing are all you've got. It would be even worse now that the old heavy trousers have been replaced by the (cheaper) new version.

By the way, round neck jumpers with the collar worn outside - :yuk:

Anyway we'll all be in the new non-FJ ensemble soon. It looks exactly like CS 95 and once wings/brevet have been banned the pax and crew will be identically dressed, instantly solving the uniformity issue.

Who's for a Sqn cummerbund?

:ok:

[Mr C Hinecap]

Is this issue back again?

Yes - I was there - bluntie at start of RAF life, doing blankets etc at the great shiny base.

The crews I knew preferred to fly in blues most of the time - they said the cockpit was a warm place & a short sleeved shirt was far more comfortable than a growbag. They actually got issued with extra blues for this reason. I went through the issue of flying suits, as more & more were loaned out by the squippers (esp to Air Stewards) who would slip into them at the 1st chance. We went through all the reasons why they 'needed' them, including:

Our blues get dirty when we're loading/unloading/prepping. Then wear denims - not an item of protective clothing (flying suit).

If there is a flash fire we need them for the stewards.
Do the PAX wear them? No - then that environment is safe not to wear one (not my call - Flight Safety there).

We want to look like aircrew.
That was the real reason - c0ck all else. At the time the front end boys were still happiest in blues.
The only time they wore greens was AAR taskings. No need at any other time. Flying suit is protective clothing - the Flight Safety at the time didn't think the environment (multi engine shiny fleet) warranted flying suits, especially as civvies were cool with it.
It all depends on who is in charge at the time I guess.

[Brain Potter]

Cabin crew do not load/unload aircraft. It should be movers that put on denims to shift pallets (and not whilst wearing flying gloves).

If there is a toilet or hold fire, the cabin crew will move pax away from the scene and fight the fire. Hence standard RAF flying suit/gloves, together with smoke hood and fire gloves, is the best protection available. The pax/movers/aeromed teams would not be fire-fighting and any comparison is invalid . However, for the same reasons, we do insist that the pax cover up a bit more than they would have to on an airline.

Civilian airlines do not procure AEA or employ safety equpiment personnel. We do, and so what is wrong with handing out a few more flying suits to personnel that might actually need the protection.

I can certainly think of a few trades who possess but do not require flying suits; cabin crew are not amongst them.

The current Gp policy has all crew members of AT/AAR ac in approved flying clothing for all sorties. Surely that cannot be such an outrageous idea?

[November4]

Blues are not suitable for cold climates. For example, whilst flagging Goose between 2 temperate locations there are no suitable additional outer layers.

Blues with the addition of artic parkas (available from stores) are good enough for people posted to Goose ...but not for transitting aircrew?

After all its a long walk from aircraft to crew bus. Crew bus to ops. Crew bus to accom.


Cabin crew do not load/unload aircraft. It should be movers that put on denims to shift pallets (and not whilst wearing flying gloves).

Mr C wasn't saying that they did.....he was saying that this was one of the excuses given as to why people needed the loan of a flying suit.

If you have seen a MAMS team in the last 4 years or so, you might have noticed that they are now wearing CS 95 not flying suits.

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Folks lets not let this degenerate into the usual slanging match and face a few facts before moving on:E

Aircrew, of all denominations wear flying suits cos we can........ and everyone else wears them cos they "wannabe":ok:

"digging for cover":p

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[Brain Potter]

ABIW - agreed.

The so-called "shiny" fleet (which is actually the tanker force doing weekend work) have been wholly in flying suits for about the same time as MAMS have been in CS95.

Both are the most practical for the jobs we are currently doing.

Let's leave it that way.

[Throttle Pusher]

Much prefered the girls down the back on the VC10 in cabin dresses. If you timed your asscent from the radio electrics bay just right, you could look up and see the promised land :O

[BUMPFF]

Is the '38 pattern KD still issued for wear in the tropics? Do the chaps still buy Hong Kong Bowlers and other bits of decent kit in the former BCC? Ah! Samtani's! (Free beer and scotch whilst they fitted you out).

The girls' flying dresses had an almost full-length zip front as I recall - often let open to admit cooling air on turnrounds.

[Navaleye]

Its good the see the Tristar still flying. We didn't get to see much of the inside. Looks like a 3-4-3 layout down the back. Do they have anything a little more comfortable for the Brass up front? Individual bedettes perhaps?

Also, when shown MPA the port engine nacelle looked as if it had had some unplanned contact with a solid object fairly recently.

[14greens]

Choice between looking like a quick fit fitter or an RAC man, give me the RAC look any day, makes it a lot easier to get through cutoms in a lot of places in blues, so much so that it has been known for crews to wear blues for getting past customs and getting airside then changing into the growbag on the jet. Means ironing now and again but hey!!!!!!!!
Used to wear blues for all tasking apart from ops, that included boring holes in the sky over the North sea and on towlines!!!!
The reason for wearing growbags when on ops is obvious but for all other tasking bring back short sleeve shirts and comfort on the flight deck.

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

14 Greens,

Been in Wilts for 7 years now and never worn or taken any "blunty blue" stuff with me so far. Experianced plenty of Faff's both air and sausage side but never yet been advised that the donning of my "Virgil outfit" would somehow magic me through the system................................exactly when was it you last:E

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[juliet]

why is everyone so keen to wear gro bags? they aren't terribly comfortable, especially when compared to the emerican suits. i would much rather wear combats (green or brown) all the time. warmer in the winter, cooler in the summer, especially as you can take off the shirt and just wear a T. to be honest i would be quite happy wearing blues except they would last about 10 sec before becoming covered in dirt from the back end. flight safety? cant tell the crew from the pax? wear a high viz jacket.

[BEagle]

Why not do away with blunty blue altogether and put everyone into Squaddie 95 on the ground as well? One or two piece flying suit design for aircrew, grunt-style for blunties. All in Eurogreen or desert DPM. Keep Mess Kit as it is and No 1s for parades and weddings.....err, and one-sided chats with AOCs?

Might get the precious ones through US airport Sicherheitsdienst quicker as well - TSA drones might mistake you for Uncle Spam's finest:E

[14greens]

Always_broken_in_wilts


couldnt possibly say where would only get accused of releasing secrets to the enemy!!!
Has seemed to be worth the effort the couple of times we have done it though, gets you to the front of the line for the x ray machine and they dont seem to insist on wrapping everyhting up in cling film:bored:

[Muppet Leader]

Am I missing the plot here?
Obviously since I left the employ of the HM Flying Club, the rules must have changed.
In all my years flogging round the world at Auntie Betties expense, irrespective of aircraft type, or destination, one had to change from the grow bag into No 2 blues, or KD, depending on the climate, before leaving the aircraft.

The only exception that I can think of to this rule was Calgary, where the RAF had its’ own detachment office.
You could then change in the office whilst phone calls and signals were being sent, prior to getting a taxi from upstairs to the Delta Bow Valley Hotel.

I seem to remember some very unpleasant changes of uniform, either very cold and you shivered whilst changing, or you were to hot, sweaty and greasy from doing the off/on load, and then had to try to slide into a clean uniform for the trip downtown.
On or two interesting sights spring to mind, when the first couple of Loadmatresses came on line in the late 80s.

:uhoh:

[FFP]

Change into Blues for the journey downtown ???

Thank f£$k that no longer holds. Along with the rates for non officer types being 75% of officer types.

Back to 3* crew uniform, I would have thought that they rarely get to wear it considering the number of jets parked outside the terminal from what I hear !!!!

Maybe the 10`s are doing all the tasking . . . . .. .

[14greens]

FFP


You are obviously at BZZ during the day, go and have a look at the pan at night time, thats when the AT fleet do most of the flying.
Back to the origional thread, god forbid that we actually have to change into blues every where!!!!!!!!!!! Just fly in em, makes a lot more sense its a lot smarter and stops the argument over what colour T shirts are acceptable. Would not be too bad if the supply system could get the flying suits from a decent supplier, there must be half a dozen different colours designs doing the rounds.

[BEagle]

Ah - the good old "You should see how busy we are at night/weekends" fable.....

Recall 1 weekend - 7 Trishaws siting around doing nothing. When we flew back that night there were only 6 doing nothing, the other was doing ground runs.... A shame really; if there were enough crews and tasks, the ac could provide a very efficient transport service around the globe.

But I'll bet that despatch reliability has improved considerably now that the A330 is doing the Malvinas run. Are the pax getting their Star Alliance air miles...??

Back to the thread - Yes, the girls looked very smart in those light grey cabin dresses!

[Sadbloke]

Beags

I can vouch for the A330 being very comfy on the Malvinas run - the crew seemed very happy with their BMI uniforms and not at all keen to swop for grow bag (although the BMI hats were slightly dodgy!) Much as I am fond of the Trishaw - long live the A330!

[November4]

BEagle - relaibilty has improved on the FI run.

Shame same can't said for the AKT / RandR runs.

[Bolt-On]

I'M sure BMI 330'S very comfortable, however rumour has it they are using Island Hold at MPA. If true, not sure Iwould be that comfortable!

[Sadbloke]

B.O

'Island Hold?' Not sure of the trucky banter but they seemed to be landing at almost max landing weight which gave them enough gas to just about go anywhere.

[BEagle]

Hmm - MLW of an A330-200 is 180 tonne. But the max ZFW is 168 tonne. If Montevideo (1000 nm from Base Aerea Gringo, Islas Malvinas) is the div, at a TAS of say 500 kts, that's 2 hours. At 5-ish tonnes per hour, that wouldn't leave much! So landing at MLW is fine, but it isn't necessarily an indication that there's a huge fuel reserve. It would be foolhardy in the extreme to use island holding rather than a mainland alternate from the Malvinas - but 'trucky' fuel planning typically doesn't burn fuel to carry fuel unless it's a financially biased decision. An extra 5% plus perhaps enough for a second IF approach over the computed minimum is about the best you should ever expect......

[Sadbloke]

Beags

Think I'm figuring what 'Island Hold' is all about - being civvies, BMI certainly had mainland divs up their sleeves - not sure where mind & whether politically correct - suspect they would have to be to get the contract in the first place? As an aside - tanking posn seemed fine behind 330!

[Blacksheep]

Tut tut! All this techno stuff on a topic about crew uniforms. Back to the subject - the ladies really did look nice in their skirts back in the good old days, but more to the point, does anyone know what happened to the Marine Bar's infamous knicker collection when Gan closed down? Did some sleazy Gannite Shnurk spirit it away in his ditty box or was it consigned to the bowels of the RAF Museum at Hendon?

[BEagle]

When I arrived on 56 at Wattisham, in the 'sqn museum' along with Albert Ball's uniform (Bill Rosie had already searched the pockets for any loose change!), I was a bit surprised to find a WRAF uniform, plus lacey black bra and full 'webbing'. I just had to find the answer to this mystery..

It seems that the previous TrgOFF had donated an....err, 'inflatable lady' to the sqn for 'use' on APC dets etc. So the boys used to spirit it on to the Herc or '10, inflate it and dress it up, then sneak it away and deflate it after the head count to confuse the muppets and loadies......

Shame - I thought that perhaps the uniform and, more especially, the webbing had been acquired at some scene of wanton depravity.....:E

[snaggletooth]

I've been flying on rotary for the past 16 years, & have always despised flying suits & CW flying clothing. Am I alone in finding them totally impractical for anything other than sitting on a sheepskin cushion & taking a certain column gently between thumb & forefinger? I would much rather fly in CS95 as it is far more comfy & practical (it's easier to take a dump :})

I have flown in CS95 when my belligerent nature comes to the fore, but at the end of the day if the order books, written by our Lords & Masters, state we SHALL wear AEA, what choice is there?

Let's face it, it's not the worst/last @RSE decision those who should know better will make...

Long live the Royal Air Farce.

I have the honour to be, Sir, Your obedient servant...

[albert the first]

On the mighty green/gray party bus we do all our flying in CS95 on op and ex which is most of the time. I did hear stories about a two piece flying suit but nothing seems to have come of it.

Cheers from the sandy place

ATF

[flyboy007]

Personally, as a shiny fleet driver, I'd rather wear a flying suit. If we stop for min ground time down route, I don't have to iron it. It's that simple. Call me lazy.
And, because I can.
WRT C17 flying suits, having worn them in a past life, I can assure you they look better, are more comfrotable, and more practical than the current RAF ****e.

[Grand Fromage]

Are the c17 gro-bags the same as USAF FJ ones, if so they don't have pockets!?