Bush defends service record

[squire]

Asked why no evidence has been found to show he reported to duty in Alabama during the summer and fall of 1972, Bush said: "There may be no evidence, but I did report. Otherwise, I wouldn't have been honourably discharged... I did show up in Alabama."

Bush said he would "absolutely" authorise the release of any documents relating to his Guard service during that period -- "if we still have them." He said the records are kept in Colorado and have already been "scoured."

Bush acknowledged that he did not volunteer to go to Vietnam. "No, I didn't. You're right," he said.

Pressed on his feelings about that war, Bush said: "The thing about the Vietnam War that troubles me as I look back was it was a political war. We had politicians making military decisions, and it is lessons that any president must learn, and that is to set the goal and the objective and allow the military to come up with the plans to achieve that objective."



Oh my God!
:\ The current "objective" is a little murky to .....????:oh:

[OFBSLF]

In the Vietnam war, Johnson's White House was determing bombing targets. There have been a lot of criticism of Bush, but I haven't heard anyone accuse him of micro-managing the war the way Johnson did.

[squire]

So what is the goal so worthy of the costs so far?
1. Do not reply WMD
2. Do not reply Terrorist links
3. Do not reply defense of human rights

OK I'm waiting.............?:E

[Liam Gallagher]

Squire,

You either fight Saddam in 2003 on your terms or you fight him at a later date on his terms........the choice is yours.....

[rivetjoint]

Well said "Liam".

[currawong]

He did not get the VD and scar.

But he did get into uniform. Which is more than many.

What was Slick Willi (Bill Clinton) doing whilst military age?

Busy not inhaling, methinks.

[ORAC]

Kerry might be making a big mistake trying to make Vietnam a scoring point between his record and Bush's. He's dragging up the issue of his own record after his return from action, and in veteran's eyes he's tarred with the same brush as Jane Fonda. e.g. Vietnam Veterans Against John Kerry (http://www.usvetdsp.com/jf_kerry.htm). Atlanta Journal (http://www.ajc.com/opinion/content/opinion/0204a/09veteran.html). You'll see a lot of this poster in the months to come - :hmm:

http://pages.prodigy.net/michaelmbbates/kerryfonda.jpg

[OFBSLF]

Don't forget about Kerry's protest anti-war protest when he "threw away his medals" in shame. Turns out, they were someone else's medals he threw away...

[Archimedes]

ISTR that Bush was an F-102 pilot. If so, even if he'd volunteered, would he have been sent out to Vietnam given the relatively small number of F-102s in theatre??

Clinton certainly wasn't busy earning his degree - he left Oxford without completing it...

[soddim]

Interesting that in the US the military record still counts for something with the electorate.

I'm not sure what influence it has on the UK electorate.

Is a good one positive or negative?

[con-pilot]

As far as I can determine there were no F-102s or F-106s in Viet Nam. There were some F-104s and a ton of F-100s and F-105s. Then of course the F-4, lots of them things. That’s for the Air Force that is.

[Archimedes]

Con, there were a few F-102s.

The 509th FIS, 82nd FIS and 64th FIS flew them. There were about 20 in theatre in 1966. One was lost to a MiG 21 on 3 Feb 68. Last one left in May 1971.

There were, believe it or not, efforts to use the F-102 in the ground attack role...

[West Coast]

Perhaps thats were they got the idea to compromise other platforms also, ala the bomb cat.

ORAC
That banner rocks.

[con-pilot]

Thanks, I stand corrected. The 102 in a ground attack mode couldn't have been any worse than the 104 was!

[Archimedes]

F-102 in ground attack mode =
1. Launch IR AIM-4s at VC camp fires
2. Use 2.75in FFARs in missile bay door tubes
3. Fit a minigun pod on a TER, hang it on the underwing pylons used normally for fuel tanks.

(3) never advanced beyond a test-fit, but the other two were trialled. According to Air Force Times, 509th FIS destroyed 106 buildings, 16 sampans and one bridge in 199 sorties [source Wings of Fame Vol 17]. It appears from the same source that the pilots were less than convinced that the F-102 was a suitable platform for this role, but the USAF declared that it was!

[normally left blank]

Con: "Then of course the F-4, lots of them things. That’s for the Air Force that is."

May I recommend the book:

"PHANTOM OVER VIETNAM"

by John Trotti.

He was of the USMC "persuasion". Some of the best description of military flying I've read. (And the Vietnam war of course).

Best regards

[OFBSLF]

ORAC That banner rocksIndeed. Kerry and Hanoi Jane.

[Blacksheep]

I like Vietnam - the Vietnamese are such lovely people - and I wear my Ho Chi Minh T-shirt whenever I get the chance. Back in '69 a bunch of us were once asked by a US GI why UK wasn't in Vietnam and we told him Uncle Ho hadn't asked us for any help yet. We haven't always been puppy dogs you know... :hmm:

A peasant army that simply wouldn't give in. There's a lesson to be learned from that for all those who think that overwhelming force is the answer to everything.

[Drop and Stop]

White House Press Briefing Re: Dubya's National Guard record.... (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/02/20040210-3.html)

Haven't laughed so hard in ages!

[normally right blank]

Blacksheep

Yes, nothing beats a little up-manship. One of my colleagues talked to a British pilot during a beer-call in 1982. He was going on about his Falklands experience. At last the other fellow got a word in sideways:

"Ah! Now I understand. You mean the Malvinas!"

They didn't share many beers after that :ooh:

Best regards

[BillHicksRules]

Drop and Stop,

I agree with you.

Cheers

BHR

[nimrodnosewheel]

NLB

Totally agree on Phantom Over Vietnam by John Trotti, USMC. Brilliant flying & combat descriptions and lots of humour as well, for example (from the glossary)

GUARD

An emergency comms channel. Military aircraft religiously monitor Guard except when someone starts talking on the frequency or an emergency locator beacon goes off, destroying ears for miles around. (It's a good idea, but most aviators would eat gopher berries before using Guard. The tale is told about the American pilot returning with a damaged aircraft from a raid over the North who came up on Guard to describe hi predicament. After several minutes of play by play by the stricken aviator an Australian voice cut in to suggest "Shut up, Yank, and die like a man!")

[Blacksheep]

Ah yes normally right blank, 'Los Islas Malvinas' has such a nice poetic ring to it. I reckon we Brits could call them that just to rub a little salt in the wounds... ?

BTW didja know why the residents are called "Stills"?

[Archimedes]

Do wish you'd not asked that. Can't get the theme tune from b****y Crossroads out of my head now.

Diverting slightly back to the topic, one of Dubya's fellow pilots is a bit irritated by all the fuss, and wrote this letter (http://www.washingtontimes.com/functions/print.php?StoryID=20040210-082910-8424r) to the Washington Times.

[squire]

Jeez wonder how many other blokes got time off Vietnam to join an election circus..........sounds like a great way out of actually doing anything!!!

[DP Harvey]

Hmm, lets think about this........young Dubya, as the son of a Congressman, knows that the ANG, as an air defence (of USA) component of the USAAF, will not be called to Vietnam. He applies for a place and just makes the grade. He then spends all of his flying as a trainee only and, along the way, misses a medical check is therefore grounded systematically. He also knows that he is allowed to miss many weekends to sort out his other career interests. As one of many young pilots on the roll, his boss wouldn't know him from Adam and so far only one other individual has come forward to say he remembers him.

The guy was war dodging in a big way. AWOL? Hmm, difficult to categorise an absent part-timer as AWOL at the best of times. Did he receive pay for weekends that he didn't attend? Doubtful, if pay was on an attendance basis, because attendance records would be used (and he would be silly to get a mate to sign him in when he wasn't there). However if pay was awarded on a contractual basis, ie the assumption is that he will attend the designated weekends and for simplicity he will be paid regular amounts throughout the period of Service, then there is a possibility of some gardening leave. And, due to the glut of full timers getting the few hours available, there would be a lot of young part-timers doing a lot of gardening (not digging trenches, though).