Vulcan & Bucc. threads excellent. Anyone for the Javelin?

[Noah Zark.]

I am enjoying reading the threads on the Vulcan and the Buccaneer. Has anyone any stories to recount about another favourite of mine, the Gloster Javelin?

[polyglory]

I remember the Javelin when I first joined up, had them at Binbrook and we controlled them from Patrington and at Butterworth on the Steam Iron detachments?

That rumbling sound from the Sapphires made them stand out a bit, they were all we had all weather wise at Butterworth, until the Miracles and 74 Sqn arrived in the Mk6 Lighning.

My eldest brother was an Engine fitter on 60 and 64 Sqn at Tengah, they were hard used during the Confrontation Period.

http://www.btinternet.com/~javelin/50th_ani.htm
:)

[Blunty]

When I joined the RAF back in the long forgotten past, part of my training was to fit cameras to aircraft. Although the Javelin had been out of service for a while I had to learn to fit a gun camera to the wing of an aircraft at Cosford. That and fitting cameras to Canberras was the total of my aircraft training. So guess what? I was posted to St Mawgan and had to fit cameras to Nimrods!

[Pontius Navigator]

Forty-five thusand feet, forty-five degree bank turn, 1.5g, 2,000 feet per minute rate of climb.

No, not the flying flat iron but us in a Vulcan trying to evade a Javelin. The Javelin was hanging in there, tied on 7 o'clock 5 miles on our inside.

Round and round we went climbing higher and higher but still he was there unmoving on my Fishpool display. Eventually, when he slipped out to 6 miles the pilots broke the spell. We had been doing simulated IMC evasion and they could see the flat iron turning aimlessly 25,000 feet below.

As a missile platform against an unalerted bomber it was a good bet at a night fighter. One of our plotters, Bertie Wooster, was held in great awe on our sqn. He had 1,700 hours on Javelin all-weather night fighters. Somewhat less impressive was his grand total of 150 hours night.

[Art Field]

We used to Tank them around the world with the Valiant. They climbed at our rate, cruised about 2 kts faster but could out descent us by miles. The Gloster Dragmaster was one name for them. They had a cartridge start system which frequently failed.
I remember brining one back from op Shiksha, a co-operate with the Indians, which had lost its Nav from an ejection over the Jungle [fortunately he survived] and was so bent after recovery from a spin that it flew sideways.

[BEagle]

Wasn't it the world's first non-aerobatic fighter?

Hope that one parked in front of the Leeming OM is still there? Or is there a plastic Spitfire or something there now? There used to be a NF Meatbox quite near the old guardroom at Leeming - what ever happened to that? Not a bad tally of gate-guards at Leeming in the mid 70s; Javelin, Meteor and Spitfire LFxvi.

[TheNightOwl]

I have a hazy recollection of a Javelin on QRA at Leuchars in 1961/62. Young LAC sent out by Chief to renew BF status, playing "hangar-pilots" and managed to arm and fire the Red Top/Firestreak out over the Eden estuary! All hell broke loose, but I can't remember what happened to the poor unfortunate! I was on 228, SAR choppers, and had to go looking for the practice missile remains.


Kind regards,

TheNightOwl.:ok:

[Audax]

Quote from the Javelin OCU Line Book

US exchange crew stood in front of the a/c for the course photo, pilot turns to the a/c, looks in amazement at the depth of the wing---"Gee, that's some advert for power"!

[tony draper]

Slightly off topic here, when one was a young lad ones elder brother began his Aircraft model making career on a Glouster Javelin, much work with craft knife balsa wood dope paper and Jetx engine,the post above about the aircraft flying sideways rings a bell, said model was long in the building but had a very brief tragic flying career .
Elder bro transfered to ship models.
;)

[Samuel]

I was at Tengah during 1966 when both 60 and 64 Sqns operated the Javelin; alongside 45 Sqn RAF with Canberras, and 14 Sqn RNZAF, also with Canberras but the B12. 20 sqn were also around with Hunters.

The Javelins were by far the most entertaining, and a number were lost, at least four I think. One , a trainer variant, had a brake problem on landing and took a sharp left past the Crash Crew who were on the runways side of the mossie ditch that ran the length of the runway. The aircraft ended up straddling the ditch, with the crew legging it towards the flight line which wasn't that far away! The aircraft was scrapped.

Another was turning onto finals above and behind the the Officer's Mess, and I was watching it very closely as I was prone to do, when the canopy flew off, quickly followed by two seats. I actuallly heard the bangs. I can tell you that the first thought in your head is one of disbelief at what you are seeing.

The crew were fine and the aircraft was more or less in one
piece in a fishing pond in Jurong! The one which went into the Straits was not so fortunate.

They had AVpin starters, which occasionally caught fire, and I used to watch the lineys, while they watched us, and if they moved away from the aircraft we moved towards it! While the aircrew took off in a hurry!

One thing I did notice about the Javelin was it created its own weather on take-off in high humidity conditions. Almost a halo!

[forget]

This reminds me of an interesting article in Air Clues(?) during the 60’s. Two pilots with nothing better to do at the time had discovered that if you levelled off two Javs at 15,000 or so, wing tip to wing tip, and then gently climbed and descended one aircraft about the mean altitude of the other, the first aircraft would gradually pull away.

No one could explain why. Canberra and Lightning pilots tried it and the expected happened, with the first aircraft gradually falling behind.

Might have had something to with Javs not fully understanding aerodynamics.

The closest I ever got to Javs was Tengah during Vulcan detachments. They made the world’s scariest alarm clocks. Our accommodation block was very close to the end of the runway. After a bad night in Bugis Street in the company of beautiful oriental ‘ladies‘, and two hours sleep, the first sound you’d hear was the approaching wail of two unsynced Sapphires. It took a few terrifying moments to realise you were still on planet Earth.

[Pontius Navigator]

BEAgle it is stall at Leeming.

Coningsby now has two, a shiney F4 and an F3.

[hairyclameater]

Much too young to have ever seen a Javelin fly but my Dad has several on home movies form Norfolk Broad holidays whilst around Coltishall and Horsham St Faith - what a beast!That static example at Fairford last year and Duxfords exBoscombe test machine are superb.

I thought the weird noise a Javelin made was aerodynamic rather than powerplant- caused by the gun ports in that barn door wing, like the Meteor F8s engine intake "groaning" or the Hunter's sabrina's blue note??

Hate to be padantic but shouldnt this, the Vulcan and Bucc threads be in history & nostalgia?

[TheNightOwl]

With regard to the Sapphire engine, I recollect being told by a 29Sqn Engine Fitter at Leuchars that it was prone to a phenomenon called "centre-line closure"- I think that was the term. Would anyone have any idea what this would be, and how it was overcome, if at all?

The Avpin starter used to scare the tripes out of me, however ready I was for it, just like the PR9 Canberra of 13Sqn. I also remember the propensity for the #1 Royal Inverter(?) being the cause of start-up fires, not sure how.

Kind regards,

TheNightOwl.:ok:

[Audax]

The Sapphire did suffer from centre line closure. To the best of my knowledge, it was the engine's outer casing deforming slightly, causing the internal rotating bits to come into contact with the casing--nasty.

[henry crun]

Centreline closure, if my memory serves me well, was caused by the ingestion of supercooled water droplets which caused the compressor casing to contract and touch the blades.

The result could be blades breaking and passing through the engine to the turbine causing it to break up in turn.

With the other engine and vital ancillaries like hydraulic pumps and generators so close the outcome is no difficult to imagine.

I think the fix involved some sort of abrasive material being fixed to the compressor casing so the blades would grind down rather than break off.

Hairy, the engines at idle rpm had weird undulating sort of low pitched moan that was very penetrating.

[BEagle]

A chap who was a well-known TP told me of his course at ETPS when they still had the test Javelin there. Off he went to wild West Wales to do some TP thing involving rudder doublets, SPO excitation or somesuch. After a while doing this, there was a strangled yelp from the back seater; he suggested that they RTB'd fairly schnell. Some gross cock-up about fuel flow, fuel volume - and the ac having 2 engines rather than 1! Off they went at best range cruise, approaching Green One they were given the usual (for those days) "Turn right 60 for ident" from the Air Traffickers...... "Madam", quoth TP chum, "I am flying the world's last remaining Javelin. If I do what you ask, the world will soon have one less. Non-deviating direct please....."

Apparently they just made it home on fumes....

[ORAC]

The Javelin was the only aircraft I know of where, for a short period, the recommended stall recovery technique was for the Nav to eject....

[Samuel]

There was a very topical and funny newsletter produced at Tengah during Confrontation called "Tengah Times", and after the Javelin T3 failed to clear the mossie ditch, an issue appeared with a cartoon on the front and two pilots running across the tarmac with the smoking Javelin in the background, and the caption, "They didn't bloody-well teach this at OCU".

I guess you had to be there!

[Art Field]

The moaning sound of the Sapphire could also be heard from the Victor 1's which of course had four of them. When the Javelin people discovered the centreline closure problem they failed to tell the Victor operators and a Victor out of Singapore suffered a double engine failure which was no fun in the grossly underpowered "in the hot" Victor. Because of the poor engine intake design the Sapphires were only producing 7500lbs thrust on take-off rather than the 11000lbs as advertised. I believe the captain got a gong for recovering that aircraft. Incidently I seem to remember the cure was carburundum paste on the blades rather than the casing but the effect was the same. There were certainly some incidents over France with Javelin engine failures caused by centreline closure.

[Archimedes]

AF,

This sounds like the incident with XH614 - the pilot ended up with just one engine at one point. The number 1 engine went first, and despite no fire warning (the system was severed by the explosion) there was an orange glow. The no. 1 and no.2 engines were shut down (part of the fire drill, AIUI). About 15 seconds later, the no.3 engine failed. After a spot of very quick thinking, the captain decided to re-light no.2 engine, which came back after four attempts. XH614 landed past the threshold, and stopped 20 yds of the end of the runway. The captain was awarded an AFC.

[orionsbelt]

Butterworth sept 1964, 15 Sqdn Victor B1a XA 941 had same problem. Was on the last Victor det B4 the Vulcans managed to arrive ( 6 weeks late!!!!!).
Came home Nov 64 , posted from Cottesmore to Honington, promptly got set back out on news years day , Gave me a nice 6 weeks in the Sun, Jan 65.
Talking about Javelins, again at Butterworth, 64 Sqdn had 6 on det. They weren’t the best of the fleet as they never managed to get more than 2 airborne at any time. However the Boss cracked the whip and the boys worked there b$lls off all weekend and managed not only to achieve 4 serviceable Aircraft but to launch 4 as well. (Tornado Wings pls note )
At the end of the trip they busted back into the cct tucked in tight 4 ship Echelon stb, looked great. (This will p$ss off the F86 wing!!!!!!)
Break left 2 sec intervals nice tight ccts, No 1 touches, puff of smoke from the gear, rolls out, No 2 touches down puff of smoke from the gear, then even bigger puff of smoke from left wheel, big bang hits our ears on Victor line. No 3 powers up from very short final, crash wagon sets out, No 2 leaves the runway to the left heading for the F86 line at a high rate of knots.
No 4 go's around. 3/4 land away.
Never saw 4 Javs airborne again

[Noah Zark.]

Thanks for the replies, folks. Interesting stuff. On one occasion in my youth, I happened to be on the seafront at South Shields, in Durham, when I heard one of the strangest noises I have ever come across.
I turned and looked over the sea, and flying south to north, about a mile or so offshore, were six Javelins, cruising along in loose formation, and at a height of perhaps two or three thousand feet.
I watched them for several minutes until they went from view behind the headland, but they could still be heard for quite a while afterwards.
I assumed they were from R.A.F. Middleton St. George (now Teeside Airport) where I believe they were stationed at some time. Perhaps someone who was in the R.A.F. at that time might enlighten us.
The only other example I have ever seen flying was XH897, the Duxford machine, although at the time, it was still busy at Boscombe Down.
I actually saw it at the R.A.F. "At Home" Day at R.A.F. Coltishall, where it was on static display.
After the show had finished, we were walking back to where we were staying, a distance of about three miles, when XH897 took off, on its way home, passing directly over us, climbing steeply, and with a deafening roar.

[Blacksheep]

Yes there were Javelins at Middleton St George. I remember one day when I was an Air Cadet - so it was between 1961 and 1963 - I was in a train travelling from Thornaby to Darlington and as we passed M St G I admired the two immaculate lines of Javelins and Lightnings. Fighter Command had a penchant for lining their squadrons up in straight lines to make it easier for an enemy to strafe them - it was the gentlemanly thing to do and unlike bomber crews, fighter pilots were gentlemen. Suddenly one of the Javelins sank to the ground, pole axed. There being no sign of any Migs in the circuit I assume it was an unfortunate rigger who had somehow selected the gear up. Fighter Command were also very good at stiffening their upper lips so we never did find out what happened.

**************************
Through difficulties to the cinema

[terryJones]

I must put my hand up to having been ground crew (Air Wireless Mech) on Javs back in the late 50's early 60's, both at West Raynham and at No1 GWTS at Valley.
The access panel in the belly was always the first thing off and the last thing on, and lying under that beast with the engines running tightening lord knows how many Zeus fasteners...... It was before health and safety and ear defenders and all that stuff.
I recall a time just prior to the AOC's annual visit. We were all too busy doing 'mending' to clean and polish said a'c, so the shiny ar$e$ were promoted to working on them. A certain clerck type bod was busy using miles of 'WadPol' on one aircraft, in danger of removing the paint off the upper wing surface as the thing was being refueled. The u'c oleos had a habit of 'sticking' and did not settle down slowly as the weight increased. Rather, they went down in great jerks, and us regular aircraftsmen would allow for this by not standing up under the thing during this process. The lad on the wing however shot to his feet and quite literally ran off the wingtip, shouting 'the things collapsing'. Needless to say, the only things collapsing were us, in fits of laughter.
Another time was when one came back off a sortie having just been fitted with new brakes. It was not unusual in these circumstances to see flames licking up from the hubs, something to do with the 'tropical proof coating' I believe. We used to just watch, and only intervene if the flames did not seem to be dying down. A shiny ar$e, waiting for transport round the airfield, saw the flames, rushed over and fired a CO2 extinguisher at the wheel. No-one was injured by the exploding wheel hub, as you may well imagine the effect of cold gas on hot hubs.... We used to use powder extinguisher on brake fired for this very reason.
Bit pi$$ed off at Valley, it was across the water and they spoke in strange tongue, but we did not get overseas pay
Nice site here for the Jav anyway:-
http://www.btinternet.com/~javelin/
TJ

[warplane.co.uk]

A little grotty, but taken recently at an ever wet Leeming

http://www.warplane.co.uk/AirfieldGuides/lossie/IMG_1179.jpg

Starting to rust slightly.

[forget]

Interesting Javelin web at

http://www.btinternet.com/~javelin/images.htm

[paulc]

Attended a lecture by Brian Grant a couple of weeks ago who is the red bull sea vixon display pilot.

As a young RAF pilot he flew Javelins from Leeming and recounted tales of his interesting and varied career. Centreline closure was mentioned with the solution being carborundum paste being applied to the blade tips. He also mentioned that at Leeming it was often the case that a crosswind would be present. As the Javelin had toe brakes it could be tricky to apply even braking without moving the rudder so the first thing to do on landing was to apply the control lock situated between the throttle which locked rudder bar allowing toe brakes to be used.

[frodo_monkey]

We actually have two Javelins at Leeming at the mo... The gate guard near the Mess, and one with blacked-out windows next to the wash-bay, which I believe belongs to Elvington. We also have a knackered F4 in faded 29 Sqn colours down by the wash bay, keeping the Javelin company.

[airborne_artist]

<anorak> I think that's Leeming's second gate guard Javelin. There was one there in 79, but that one may have been scrapped as XA634 (the present one) was at Colerne until the museum closed. </anorak>

[Pontius Navigator]

Orionsbelt, halleluja. You are the first person I have heard from that actually said the Vulcans got there <<Butterworth sept 1964, 15 Sqdn Victor B1a XA 941 had same problem. Was on the last Victor det B4 the Vulcans managed to arrive ( 6 weeks late!!!!!). Came home Nov 64 >>

The whole issue is shrouded in mystery and confusion but we were not 6 weeks late. I concede that the powers that be may have promised you relief 6 weeks earlier but that is different.

I joined the sqn on Jun 64 and the sqn was due to relieve you at the end of Sep 64. We were to leave on 23 Sep. In the event Confrontation flared up and 55/57 at Tengah were extended. At the same time we were rushed out on 8 Sep and thereafter the staffs go cold feet. We arrived at Aden the next day and then held for 5 days before moving forward to Gan. We held there a further 9 days as the FEAF base loading to too high and the air threat was high. We then started to rotate through Butterworth, one aircraft at a time to rearm. We eventually arrived at Butterworth at the begining of October.

PM me, and I can send you my article.

[Out Of Trim]

Anyone know what happened to the RAF Manston Gate Guard Javelin - It was still there when I left in 1982.

Probably scrapped I guess.. but, if anyone knows for sure.. Fire away!

[BEagle]

Don't know about London Kent Manston, but the civil aerodrome at Staverton Cheltenham Gloucestershire Intergalactic currently has a nicely maintained Jav as gate guard!

[Cornish Jack]

Sort of on-topic
We were called into the office in the early 60's to 'deal with' a reported bail-out by a Jav crew en-route to the Far East. IIRC, the pilot was killed and the Nav (Tony Melton?) was, eventually, picked up by a Pakistani Grumman Goose pilot from a river.
We later met this pilot at an overnight in Burma, still with his Goose - fascinating !

[NutherA2]

[a reported bail-out by a Jav crew en-route to the Far East]

This was an early instance of centreline closure, I was in close formation (IMC) when the failure happened. We were delivering Javelins by ferrying, rather than flight refuelling, to Singapore when 60 Sqn's Meteor 14s were being replaced. Our "convoy" wasn't the most successful, we left Waterbeach with 6 aircraft and arrived at Tengah two weeks later with 4. Tony Melton's pilot, Ted Owen, was the single casualty, though, the first aircraft lost was on the ground at Luqa when it suffered a fairly spectacular (AVPIN inspired) failure during a ground run following an engine starter change.