DHL rejects Belgian demand for less noisy planes (Merged)

[Oshkosh George]

Don't know about that. But you won't have to--the airport's closing!

Well,you\'ll all be very happy when the airport is forced to close then,and everybody is jobless. You\'ll still not be able to sleep though,as all the people without jobs will be hammering on your door! Better bar the windows.

[PPRuNe Pop]

Two seperate threads running on different forums. Now merged together. Nothing is lost and they slip into date order. Keep going.

PPP

[chiglet]

tgdxb
Wow! 10,458 petitions so far
A couple of questions:-
1. What is the number of "duplicate" petitions?
2. What is the "total" number of people affected?
Sorry chum, you are the greatest NIMBY that I have heard of.
OOI, I lived along side a busy military [ie noisy ] runway in a tent [and I was a "shift worker"], I then lived under the approach and departure path into Manchester Airport and I now live alongside a [very] busy road, and sleep with the windows open
Sleep well in silence
watp,iktch

[red_on_yello]

tgdxb,

I love it when you anti noise guys come up with figures:

10,458 petitions so far

Petitions were signed by family members and other people signing out of sypmpahty, this probably after you told them stories about your "inhumain" living conditions

Thus 50 percent was signed by people living up to Bruges, Hasselt, Gent.... (for the non-Belgians these towns are 70+ km from the airport)

A friend of mine lives in Limburg and they actually came to his door to ask him to sign a petition against the airport,
He tought it was against Liege....but NO it was against BRU
An airport 90kms away from his home !!!

I remember seeing the local politicians from Meise on TV, urging their resident to sign a petition against ground noise from the Airport....
f*ck !!! Meise is 15 km from the airport, what are these people thinking !!!
People just needed to sign standard letters, politicians did the rest...

Again in the news today, figures given by the airport's "ommbudsman" - guy where you can send the noise complaints

Before DHL decided to move somewhere else:
2000 complaints a day.

After the announcement of their move:
30 complaints + now also emails from people who are disgusted with tgdxb friend's victory and the loss of 1700 jobs

He confirmed that the +/- 1900 other mails he got (per day !!)
were auto generated by anti-noise lobby websites !!

CONCLUSION: Only about 30 real complaints !!!
1700 direct jobs + 3000 indirect jobs lost for 30 complaints !!

tgdxb, I think you should post you replies on an anti-noise site,
NOT AN AVIATION SITE

You are -as everybody else- entitled to your opinion,
but i'am affraid you won't be able to get any pilot on your side

Would also be nice that you answer or comment on other peoples arguments and questions iso always trying to find new arguments from your own

It's also typical of you that you are telling Belgian pilots they should stop complaining about the loss of flying jobs in Belgium, they should just take a job at Emirates
(again you might not have noticed, but there are thousands of pilots out of a job, so they won't be the only one applying !!)

Also it's not because you like to be an expat, that everybody likes to move from their home country

Yet it's your complaining that causes these jobs to dissapear from Belgium in the first place.....
(oohh you didn't know DHL/EAT is a Belgian airline which employes...right... Belgian pilots... some of which ex-Sabena)

I'm really trying to see you as aviation enthousiast, but i still have to find a sign of it, man !!

sleep tight

PS
there are 99 percent deaf people in Belgium, as you call anyone who isn't bothered by aircraft noise as .... deaf

[chiglet]

It seems that tg's gone quiet. Perhaps he's taken his own advice, and gone expat, to get a bit of a kip
watp,iktch

[tgdxb]

red, chiglet,
this has become a 'dialog of deaf' and I do not see how this further contributes to a constructive discussion. Of course, I do read & respect your views. And I can understand your frustration.
But I'll tell you, when I was told that SN would not be able to hire me because of an imbalance between Flemish & French speaking employees (I was hired by a major multinational company; so must not have been that bad skills profile) and when I see the incredible imbalance of Flemish employee at/around the airport (this is an... international... airport) now - where are the jobs for French speaking people?! -, it is hard for me to feel a lot of sympathy.
And do not treat me as selfish; what were/are the people on the other - your? - side?
We are living in a democracy and big decisions should incorporate all stakeholders, not only those like you guys.

[red_on_yello]

tgdxb,

That's the problem - or blessing - of living in a country where
we speak 2 official languages (even 3 if you count the German community)

If you look at any job vacancy in belgium there's a requirement to speak both official languages, that's why you get BOTH languages in school !!

It is a fact that almost all Flemish people speak French,
which can't be said about the French !
(just look at the politicians on tv, i almost have to cry when i see a Walloon politician trying to speak Dutch...these guys should be well educated)
Why do they refuse or are they unable to speak Dutch???

Different mentality:
Flemish people are open to other cultures,
they do not think their culture/language is superior to other cultures

Example:
All foreign movies on Flemish television have subtitles,
on Walloon tv they are dubbed in French.

Think about this:
22 percent of people in Brussels are unemployed,
only 5 percent of those are Flemish speaking !!

All the others are French speaking.
Why don't they want to learn Dutch, so they can get a job in Flanders, that's where the jobs are !!!!

If - due to some miracle - there would be jobs in Wallonia,
I would just go work over there, as i also speak French
Being bilingual is a must in Belgium to find a job !!

This country has to many politicians,
thus also the reason why you didn't get a job at SN.
They should just take the right man for the right job !!
But you cannot blame Flemish people for this !!

BTW in which multinational company do you work ??
Hope they don't produce or transport anything that could
eventually get Green politicians to take away your licenses
and throw you out on the street !!
You'll feel like all those DHL people now

[tgdxb]

red,
I am afraid this is the wrong place to start debating this topic.
I'll just add that I am french speaking - not Walloon who are not exactly the way you depict them BTW - and spoke already 3 languages when SN could not hire me (Dutch was one of them & I was more than happy to work in Zaventem!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!). Today I am speaking 5 languages and don't need Belgium to live anymore because I feel the country is stupidly wasting its energy with internal infightings, despite its huge capabilities and potential.
I am afraid I disagree with your biased view of how great & superior the Flemish community/economy is but I do not want to enter any argument on this topic here because it will be endless.
I am a strong believer that 'United, we Stand'. Today Belgium is taking the absolute wrong direction but I am unable to change this.

[MPH]

Whooow, 4 more pages and we might be able to get txd to fly an MD11 down rwy 25 (BRU) in the middle of the night!!!!

[tgdxb]

mph,
you are right - might be quieter to sleep in there

[red_on_yello]

tgdxb,

I am afraid this is the wrong place to start debating this topic

correct me if i'am wrong, but weren't you the guy who started talking about language issues:

" I didn't get a job at SN, because i wasn't Flemish"
" Majority of the jobs on the airport are for Flemish people"
" French speaking people get only the nuisance from the airport"

Is that typical of a French speaking Belgian, who is in FAVOR of united we stand ??

Today I am speaking 5 languages and don't need Belgium to live anymore

I'am very happy to hear you don't need Belgium anymore,
but could you have decided that and moved abroad, BEFORE you and your friends started the anti-noise lobby ??
Could have saved some jobs ....ooh sorry, forgot they were only Flemish jobs

United we stand indeed and it would be a stupid idea to split Belgium, there should be solidarity between Flanders/Wallonia
There actually is, because there is a money flow of 11 billion Euro per year from Flanders to Wallonia/Brussels region...
But this stuff is off topic ....

Also, where did I state that Flemish people were superior ??

Anyway enjoy your new country,
but don't move to close to an airport i beg you !!

[runawayedge]

Why are we entertaining this anti-aviation, anti noise, anti everything, on this site. In fact I think tgdxb should now be referred to as 'Aunty'. If you are leaving Belgium imminently as you suggested in your last post, why did you go to so much effort to cause so much trouble before your departure. As with most antis anything is fair in the justification of the cause. When you do move please make sure it is as far as possible from any avaition related activities. Can I recommend the North Pole, better still launch yourself into outer space!

[tgdxb]

runawayedge,
definitely not an anti-aviation nor anti everything chat but anti 'noise at night'. If you think differently from the postings, you missed the point.
runaway... red...,
you bet airport & associated noise will... definitely... be on my selection criteria when I moved away from BRU and intolerant & single minded people like you. Don't misstate me - I can accept airport noise during the day, as I have been doing for 18 years now.
I am stil trying to laugh at your 'humour'

red...,
I said, I was stopping arguing about the regional issue because I believe we won\'t be able to agree anyway. But I do respect your standpoint, though.

[red_on_yello]

tgdxb,

hahahahahaha, typical :-)

There isn't a single person on this forum who agrees with you,
yet WE are "intolerant and single minded"

I actually think it's great tgdxb is on this forum,
trying desperately to re-educate us dumb aviation people to become 5-language speaking, anti noise ex-pats

Sorry... not anti noise....just anti - RWY 20 take off

I always had a certain view on anti-noise people.....well you're just like i thought you would be....

Appreciate you can stand the airport noise at day

[tgdxb]

red...,
the way you depict the situation shows by itself how much biased or how much misinformed you are by your politicians.
I have in my own company Flemish people who do NOT - I repeat, NOT - speak French not even understand it. I have faced Aviapartner employees at BRU who could ONLY - I repeat, ONLY - speak Flemish, not even English. These are ONLY a couple of examples. How did these guys get a job in an international environment? There are other reasons for this imbalance which I do not want to expose to the world because it would make this country ridiculous.

some food for thoughts...
found on http://www.scan-uk.mmu.ac.uk/Topics/noise.html
see following extract (hmmmm.... coming from the UK even)
Management Case Study

A noise control programme has been running at Manchester Airport (UK) for over 20 years. The aim of the programme is to keep disturbance as low as possible by:

limiting night flights, and especially the number of noisier aircraft which fly at night;
encouraging the phase out of Chapter 2 aircraft quicker than the law requires;
using incentives and penalties to encourage airlines to use the quieter types of aircraft and for their pilots to fly them as quietly as possible;
working with the airlines and NATS to design PNR’s which keep aircraft as far as possible away from built-up areas and which allow good track keeping;
working with pilots and NATS to develop quieter ways of flying aircraft;
providing a noise reduction enclosure at the airport for aircraft engine testing and encouraging its use through fees and charges levied;
supplying ‘mains’ fixed electrical power units (FEPs) on each stand to allow aircraft to switch off their noisy on-board electrical generators (APU);
enforcing noise control procedures.
The Manchester Airport Noise and Track Information System (MANTIS) checks and records every aircraft within 30 kilometres of the Airport up to a height of 12,000 feet. This shows exactly where aircraft have flown and how much noise was generated.
MANTIS is used to:

monitor aircraft noise and where they fly, 24 hours a day;
determine how new procedures are working and indicate where airlines and NATS can improve certain aspects;
automatically identify any aircraft which breaks the noise rules in order that they may be penalised;
identify aircraft which stray from the PNRs;
measure and record the effectiveness of the noise reduction programme;
investigate complaints from the community.
In order to further improve the management of noise control a group called the Aircraft Monitoring Group has also been set up. This group includes local people and provides a means of focussing on noise as a particular issue and from a local perspective. In particular this enables the local community to identify and set the priorities for the airport company.
A Pilot Technical Working Group has also been set where pilots and air traffic controllers assist in finding ways of reducing noise levels.

[MPH]

Hi 'tgdb' a least you got that one right!!! MD11 cokpit is probably quieter than, even a train running through your back yard!!!! Happy landings!

[tgdxb]

it's a nicely designed a/c; too bad it is so noisy but world can't be perfect, can it?

[mutt]

limiting night flights, and especially the number of noisier aircraft which fly at night;

Quota system already in place, DHL replaced the B727/A300’s with quieter B757’s.

encouraging the phase out of Chapter 2 aircraft quicker than the law requires;

Chapter 2 is banned.

using incentives and penalties to encourage airlines to use the quieter types of aircraft and for their pilots to fly them as quietly as possible;

Got those in place as well.

working with pilots and NATS to develop quieter ways of flying aircraft;

done.

enforcing noise control procedures.

Done with a vengeance!

Almost forgot, they also decided to spread the noise load by increasing the number of operations from RWY20!

Check out http://www.boeing.com/commercial/noise/brussels.html

I’m still amazed that you believe that 90.7 EPNdBs wont wake you up while 94.5 EPNdB’s does!

Mutt.

[chiglet]

Just "Googled" Brussels Airport and got, Reuters, Malta Times, China News and a stack of other "News Networks" going on about an "Airport Workers Strike". Something to do with DHL leaving, I gather
watp,iktch

[tgdxb]

Mutt,
thks for this useful website address.
BTW the one thing that was overlooked in your 'comprehensive' response was the involvement of the local community.
The problem is, even quieter a/c are still noisy at night due to low ambient noise. Also, FYI I read that LHR are referring to 57 dB as the level of noise causing disturbance.