Cork Airport - a summer of decline?
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On the topic of EICK I hear FCA had a slight tech issue with the toilets on DH but the captain insisted on boarding for an on time departure... So PAX + Bar = deplaning and pi$$ing on the ramp... How nice!
Why are Falcon not basing an A/C in Cork next year ? LTE last year, FCA this why not next ?
Why are Falcon not basing an A/C in Cork next year ? LTE last year, FCA this why not next ?
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The case for basing an aircraft at Cork has not been helped this year by FCA/Skyservice having to bus crews to Shannon from Cork to fly their series of flights. Makes for long duty days to be sure and that equals more pay for the crews involved. Companies not too keen about that! One of the reasons for no based aircraft next year?
Passengers answering calls of nature on the ramp? A case for a Portaloo? Tee, hee!
However, there is some progress to report. Yesterday, Sunday, 29th August, 2004, there was a Bus Eireann coach in use on the ramp being used for the transportation of pax to aircraft parked on the more remote stands! Quicker boarding, dryer pax and less opportunity for the brazen to have a quick cigarette!
The last time a coach was used on the ramp at Cork was about two to three years ago when an Air Atlanta 747 was parked on runway 25 on the eve of Munster rugby supporters departure.
Passengers answering calls of nature on the ramp? A case for a Portaloo? Tee, hee!
However, there is some progress to report. Yesterday, Sunday, 29th August, 2004, there was a Bus Eireann coach in use on the ramp being used for the transportation of pax to aircraft parked on the more remote stands! Quicker boarding, dryer pax and less opportunity for the brazen to have a quick cigarette!
The last time a coach was used on the ramp at Cork was about two to three years ago when an Air Atlanta 747 was parked on runway 25 on the eve of Munster rugby supporters departure.
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Perhaps another bit of possible good news for Cork, and I would stress that this is only a rumour within the trade at the moment.
Apparently BMI are very VERY seriously looking at ORK-LHR, taking up the cargo and Biz class that EI are so shortsightly disposing of. BMI were looking at this route in 2003, but now that EI appear to be pulling out of Oneworld, BMI see the opportunity of a large proportion of Biz and transfer passengers on the route. If it goes ahead, it will be from Apr 2005. Secondly it does look like their ORK-MAN will be going BMI mainline as well for the same reason.
Apparently BMI are very VERY seriously looking at ORK-LHR, taking up the cargo and Biz class that EI are so shortsightly disposing of. BMI were looking at this route in 2003, but now that EI appear to be pulling out of Oneworld, BMI see the opportunity of a large proportion of Biz and transfer passengers on the route. If it goes ahead, it will be from Apr 2005. Secondly it does look like their ORK-MAN will be going BMI mainline as well for the same reason.
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"Air passengers must be able to walk on water."
"Air passengers must be able to walk on water" is the heading to a letter in today's Irish Examiner newspaper from a Councillor Tom Wood from Cashel, Co Tipperary.
Cllr Woods recalls his recent experience late on Sunday, 22nd August arriving back at Cork Airport on a flight from Malaga. The weather on arrival was heavy rain and high winds and he goes on to describe the miserable plodding back to the terminal getting soaked to the skin in the process along with the elderly, parents with babies as well as the more able bodied young people all getting a good Cork drenching.
No joke to be sure. Councillor Woods refers to the sign in the arrivals area welcoming passengers to Cork Airport and he adds the words "Third World" would hardly be out of place.
The case rests for Councillor Wood's appeal to have coaches readily available to bring passengers to an from the terminal to the more remote aircraft stands.
I am sure there is an online version available of Councillor Wood's letter for all to see at http://www.irishexaminer.com.
Not me by the way! TtT.
Cllr Woods recalls his recent experience late on Sunday, 22nd August arriving back at Cork Airport on a flight from Malaga. The weather on arrival was heavy rain and high winds and he goes on to describe the miserable plodding back to the terminal getting soaked to the skin in the process along with the elderly, parents with babies as well as the more able bodied young people all getting a good Cork drenching.
No joke to be sure. Councillor Woods refers to the sign in the arrivals area welcoming passengers to Cork Airport and he adds the words "Third World" would hardly be out of place.
The case rests for Councillor Wood's appeal to have coaches readily available to bring passengers to an from the terminal to the more remote aircraft stands.
I am sure there is an online version available of Councillor Wood's letter for all to see at http://www.irishexaminer.com.
Not me by the way! TtT.
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Hi 123 Oleary
As far as I was aware, flight testing took place last week and ILS was available on 17??
Seems this was a failure of the system, rather than the system not being available on 17?
I should have checked here 1st, but I started off a topic in "rumours and news" about this.
Here is the link
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...hreadid=143531
As far as I was aware, flight testing took place last week and ILS was available on 17??
Seems this was a failure of the system, rather than the system not being available on 17?
I should have checked here 1st, but I started off a topic in "rumours and news" about this.
Here is the link
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...hreadid=143531
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The ILS to Cork's runway 17 was restored yesterday afternoon, Friday, 3rd September, 2004 around 1715 hours local.
The first aircraft to use the restored ILS for landing was the bmi baby flight from Manchester.
The diversions earlier in the day to Shannon included the FR901 from Stansted, EI841 from Amsterdam, EI711 & EI713 from Heathrow. The EI713 eventually returned to Cork about 4 pm.
Also, the BD471 from LBA and RE302 from BHD diverted also to Shannon and Kerry respectively. That was around 1 pm and the weather at the time was 3000 metres visibility, Cloud scattered at 100 feet, broken at 200 and broken at 500 feet. The wind was 230 degrees, 13 knots.
The Cork Airport passenger has had to put up with a lot during this bizarre summer.
The first aircraft to use the restored ILS for landing was the bmi baby flight from Manchester.
The diversions earlier in the day to Shannon included the FR901 from Stansted, EI841 from Amsterdam, EI711 & EI713 from Heathrow. The EI713 eventually returned to Cork about 4 pm.
Also, the BD471 from LBA and RE302 from BHD diverted also to Shannon and Kerry respectively. That was around 1 pm and the weather at the time was 3000 metres visibility, Cloud scattered at 100 feet, broken at 200 and broken at 500 feet. The wind was 230 degrees, 13 knots.
The Cork Airport passenger has had to put up with a lot during this bizarre summer.
Last edited by Tom the Tenor; 4th Sep 2004 at 13:50.
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Nope, all gone very quiet on the subject of LPL-ORK. A JEM ATP made it in to Cork last week from Dublin on a charter. Never saw her going down the 17 ILS due to the low cloud in spite of my very best efforts! 
Ryanair had a sham whinge in the Evening Echo last Saturday complaining about how Cork would have have been better off spending money on a new ILS rather than new terminal. Ryanair jumping on the ILS bandwagon I think?
Let O'Leary or any of his entourage get their way through the Cork crowd on any summer Sunday and let us see how they get on! To take on the Ryanair suggestion that Cork does not need a new terminal is just pure waffle on Ryanair's behalf.
Ryanair have all ready expressed their significant lack of interest in Cork and for that they should be thanked. Lots of other opportunities there for other carriers, hopefully!
Ryanair had a sham whinge in the Evening Echo last Saturday complaining about how Cork would have have been better off spending money on a new ILS rather than new terminal. Ryanair jumping on the ILS bandwagon I think?
Let O'Leary or any of his entourage get their way through the Cork crowd on any summer Sunday and let us see how they get on! To take on the Ryanair suggestion that Cork does not need a new terminal is just pure waffle on Ryanair's behalf.
Ryanair have all ready expressed their significant lack of interest in Cork and for that they should be thanked. Lots of other opportunities there for other carriers, hopefully!
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A working CAT II ILS at Cork Airport but her users and passengers continue to be regarded as second class by the airport?
Yesterday, there was a whole string of diversions as the minimums were below CAT II. At times the RVR was around 175 metres. The FR901 and a Spanair flight in the morning both diverted to Shannon due fog. The middle of the day saw an improvement but the fog closed in again in the evening and by nightime there were numerous more diversions to Shannon including EI723, FR907, WW6001 all London flights. Diverted also were an RE flight from Dublin, OK676 from Prague and the RE406 from Birmingham.
What has this cost Cork Airport in the number of passengers and revenue lost due to diverting to Shannon and what is the cost to the airlines involved in terms of coach transfer of passengers and hotel accomodation for crews etc? Not to mention the severe disruption to Cork's passengers who are now nearly paying the same at Cork in terms of airport taxes and charges as you would at a BAA airport like Stansted. What kind of service is this to receive?
Another fiasco at Cork Airport?
Cork Airport is going forward now in the next months as an all but independant business and is this how things are going to continue? What has the new board got to say and what remeidal action is to be taken, if any?
A CAT III ILS now needs to be installed as a matter of urgency at Cork Airport to put a stop to all of these disasters! It would be money well spent?
Halt the decline now!
Yesterday, there was a whole string of diversions as the minimums were below CAT II. At times the RVR was around 175 metres. The FR901 and a Spanair flight in the morning both diverted to Shannon due fog. The middle of the day saw an improvement but the fog closed in again in the evening and by nightime there were numerous more diversions to Shannon including EI723, FR907, WW6001 all London flights. Diverted also were an RE flight from Dublin, OK676 from Prague and the RE406 from Birmingham.
What has this cost Cork Airport in the number of passengers and revenue lost due to diverting to Shannon and what is the cost to the airlines involved in terms of coach transfer of passengers and hotel accomodation for crews etc? Not to mention the severe disruption to Cork's passengers who are now nearly paying the same at Cork in terms of airport taxes and charges as you would at a BAA airport like Stansted. What kind of service is this to receive?
Another fiasco at Cork Airport?
Cork Airport is going forward now in the next months as an all but independant business and is this how things are going to continue? What has the new board got to say and what remeidal action is to be taken, if any?
A CAT III ILS now needs to be installed as a matter of urgency at Cork Airport to put a stop to all of these disasters! It would be money well spent?
Halt the decline now!
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Hi TTT!
I always thought that they had a CAT III ILS up there?? And I also thought the problem with RE ATR's was that they were only rated for CAT II??
Well, I learn something new everyday! Saying that, as just an enthusiast I dont actually know the technical differences between CAT II and CAT III! All I know is that you can land in worse conditions with CAt III than you can with CAT II. Had a look around on the Web for the difference's but was all too technical for my little brain.....
On another note, I was up doing a bit of spotting on bank holiday Monday, and it seems that our ILS on 17 might be on the blink again? Heard a mention from ATC about an ILS was transmitting but not operational? I am assuming it was 17?
I always thought that they had a CAT III ILS up there?? And I also thought the problem with RE ATR's was that they were only rated for CAT II??
Well, I learn something new everyday! Saying that, as just an enthusiast I dont actually know the technical differences between CAT II and CAT III! All I know is that you can land in worse conditions with CAt III than you can with CAT II. Had a look around on the Web for the difference's but was all too technical for my little brain.....
On another note, I was up doing a bit of spotting on bank holiday Monday, and it seems that our ILS on 17 might be on the blink again? Heard a mention from ATC about an ILS was transmitting but not operational? I am assuming it was 17?
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A Cat II ILS like at Cork enables you to land after seeing the runway at weather minimums of 100' cloudbase and 300m visibility.
The minimums for Cat IIIa is 50' and 200m, CatIIIb at 0' and 75m, or a very rare Cat IIIc which is zero zero but you'd then most probably block the runway and shut the airport as there would be no way you could taxi!!
Having 175m viz at Cork is a very rare event indeed, and when the Cat II at Cork is up and running consistently they probably have far less annual weather diversions than you might think.
Cork very very rarely gets fog like other airports as it is on the top of a hill, very exposed to strong prevailing westerlies.
IMHO a Cat III ILS at Cork would be a complete waste of money, and would require massive earth moving to fill in the dip just before 17 which confuses the radio altimeter in the autoland sequence. This is why so many operators opt for a Cat II with manual landing, to prevent the auto-float down the not so long runway.
What it does get lots of is cloud base at 100' with a 30kt crosswind in rain.
When the wind is like this a Cat III is useless as the Autoland wind limits on the A320/1 (which I'm on) are headwind 30kts, crosswind 20kts, or tailwind 10kts.
The only way to get in is a Cat II Approach down to 100', get visual, disconnect the autopilot followed by a manual landing, as the wind limits for manual are not as restrictive as for the autoland. All this is very sporty indeed and Captain only!!! I just close my eyes and hope for the best!!
The minimums for Cat IIIa is 50' and 200m, CatIIIb at 0' and 75m, or a very rare Cat IIIc which is zero zero but you'd then most probably block the runway and shut the airport as there would be no way you could taxi!!
Having 175m viz at Cork is a very rare event indeed, and when the Cat II at Cork is up and running consistently they probably have far less annual weather diversions than you might think.
Cork very very rarely gets fog like other airports as it is on the top of a hill, very exposed to strong prevailing westerlies.
IMHO a Cat III ILS at Cork would be a complete waste of money, and would require massive earth moving to fill in the dip just before 17 which confuses the radio altimeter in the autoland sequence. This is why so many operators opt for a Cat II with manual landing, to prevent the auto-float down the not so long runway.
What it does get lots of is cloud base at 100' with a 30kt crosswind in rain.
When the wind is like this a Cat III is useless as the Autoland wind limits on the A320/1 (which I'm on) are headwind 30kts, crosswind 20kts, or tailwind 10kts.
The only way to get in is a Cat II Approach down to 100', get visual, disconnect the autopilot followed by a manual landing, as the wind limits for manual are not as restrictive as for the autoland. All this is very sporty indeed and Captain only!!! I just close my eyes and hope for the best!!
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Thanks very much for this Silver Tongued Cavalier, now I have a bit more of an understanding!!
I would have thought that there was a lot more fog problems up there than you say there is?? Any time I hear of diversions the usual is "fog" but I supose that could be the same as low cloud cover as well.....
Will take ur word as u fly in there and I dont!
I would have thought that there was a lot more fog problems up there than you say there is?? Any time I hear of diversions the usual is "fog" but I supose that could be the same as low cloud cover as well.....
Will take ur word as u fly in there and I dont!
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Silver Tongued Cavalier, Thank you for your informative and interesting remarks on the ILS at Cork and how CAT I, II and III are classified. Great to get it all nice and precise.
Agreed that a RVR of 175 metres is rare at Cork. However, if I had a Euro for every time there have been RVR readings at Cork between 225 metres and 275 metres I would be a rich man and would be on my way any day now for a nice break at MCO on a certain charter flight!
You are quite correct about the CAT II ILS cutting down dramatically on diversions from Cork, or at least, that was the case until the ILS went off the air during the summer for the upgrade to the new system. Between that and continuing poor weather the diversion rate has shot up and Cork must now have the worst diversion rate of any airline flying to Cork?
I beg to differ and put it to you that a CAT III ILS at Cork would now be money very well spent. I am all on for earth works at the 17 end to accomodate a CAT III ILS with reference to the valley and the Rad Alt readings and I am sure the earthworks could also accomodate an extra 200 metres or so to the runway which would be a very welcome addition to the overall length? Very handy for long range A330 charters, perhaps!?
Between what the airlines have lost in diversions in the last six months and what the airport charge in taxes etc I am sure this amount of money would go a fair way in the installation costs of a CAT III ILS. I am talking about either CAT IIIA or CATIIIB and if it was not practical for a 17 installation why not on the runway 35 end?
The supporters of Cork Airport have now to get over this second class status once and for all. Cork has the worst weather record among the former "State" airports of Cork, Shannon and Dublin. Cork deserves to have the best like Dublin and Shannon has when it comes to navaids etc. Excuses that the costs of a CAT III ILS at Cork would be a waste of money are a very poor excuse bearing in mind the disruption caused to your passengers and others over the summer months. This is not a Shannon stopover type issue and the waste of money argument should not be used as an excuse to further degrade Cork Airport and her passengers. We have to move on from this mentality. We just have to!
Agreed that a RVR of 175 metres is rare at Cork. However, if I had a Euro for every time there have been RVR readings at Cork between 225 metres and 275 metres I would be a rich man and would be on my way any day now for a nice break at MCO on a certain charter flight!
You are quite correct about the CAT II ILS cutting down dramatically on diversions from Cork, or at least, that was the case until the ILS went off the air during the summer for the upgrade to the new system. Between that and continuing poor weather the diversion rate has shot up and Cork must now have the worst diversion rate of any airline flying to Cork?
I beg to differ and put it to you that a CAT III ILS at Cork would now be money very well spent. I am all on for earth works at the 17 end to accomodate a CAT III ILS with reference to the valley and the Rad Alt readings and I am sure the earthworks could also accomodate an extra 200 metres or so to the runway which would be a very welcome addition to the overall length? Very handy for long range A330 charters, perhaps!?
Between what the airlines have lost in diversions in the last six months and what the airport charge in taxes etc I am sure this amount of money would go a fair way in the installation costs of a CAT III ILS. I am talking about either CAT IIIA or CATIIIB and if it was not practical for a 17 installation why not on the runway 35 end?
The supporters of Cork Airport have now to get over this second class status once and for all. Cork has the worst weather record among the former "State" airports of Cork, Shannon and Dublin. Cork deserves to have the best like Dublin and Shannon has when it comes to navaids etc. Excuses that the costs of a CAT III ILS at Cork would be a waste of money are a very poor excuse bearing in mind the disruption caused to your passengers and others over the summer months. This is not a Shannon stopover type issue and the waste of money argument should not be used as an excuse to further degrade Cork Airport and her passengers. We have to move on from this mentality. We just have to!
