Is Air Canada dead?
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: wonderland
Posts: 133
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
fatbus, you said "no one hopes AC fails"
What a load of cr@p ! Just ask the fifty year old ex C3 guy who has just been hired into the right seat of a West Jet B737-200 at CAD40k per annum, I'll bet he'd be delighted at the huge growth spurt that would result in AC's demise ! Or David Ho, nail biting at the prospect of winding up HMY with a CAD $80 million loss.
There has been over capacity in Canada for the past twenty five years. I don't think it would be any great shakes for there to be some under capacity for a change. As to the element of unprofitable rural routes needing an air service, well, it is like this, either it makes money or it doesn't. Simple, if it is profitable, someone will operate it, believe me, the CMA's and Calm Air's of Canada will turn a buck on the routes that WJ wouldn't or couldn't afford to fly. As for routes that just can't make money, well I'm sorry, but that has to be a subsidy environment. Why on earth should I or anyone else operate a route where I am losing money. An airline isn't a charity, and since it is the government that heaped the dereguated environment onto the airline industry in the first place (to reduce the need for large subsidies to the likes of the then Air Canada elephants of the world), it is up to the governments (Federal and Provincial) to decide whether they should help isolated communities.
As for YYC F/A's comments regarding the need to have a centralised carrier into which to feed, well, I live in a rural community, I have to drive to my nearest airport, (no bus or cabs available in my town), which has one route to one destination. If I cannot interline through on that carrier or one of it's partners to my final destination, then I have to check in again at the larger hub. It is something called an inconvenience. Because I choose to live in the back end of beyond, I accept that it is unreasonable to expect to have an intermodal international transport system on my doorstep. The people of Podunk, NWT know that too.
As for international routes in and out of Canada, they are all subject to bilateral agreements. It limits the number of Canadian and Foreign carriers on a particular route. Lets take YVR-LHR for instance, suppose AC had to pull of the route due to bankruptcy, sure BA would be able to pick up some slack, but they couldn't increase capacity beyond the agreed limits. That scenario would also open up prized slots at LHR for a Canadian carrier, there would be people like Richard Branson (or David Li) falling over themsleves to get the 25% max. foreign stake in a Canadian International carrier (which would likely be increased by the patriotic Feds to help get additional capacity going). And the Canadian secret weapon - our airline labour costs (excluding Air Canada's) are cheaper than anyone else's in the Western World.
From where I'm sitting, Ac's failure wouldn't be any great shakes.
Oh, and another thing, their staff are damn rude and the aeroplan scheme is a rip off.
What a load of cr@p ! Just ask the fifty year old ex C3 guy who has just been hired into the right seat of a West Jet B737-200 at CAD40k per annum, I'll bet he'd be delighted at the huge growth spurt that would result in AC's demise ! Or David Ho, nail biting at the prospect of winding up HMY with a CAD $80 million loss.
There has been over capacity in Canada for the past twenty five years. I don't think it would be any great shakes for there to be some under capacity for a change. As to the element of unprofitable rural routes needing an air service, well, it is like this, either it makes money or it doesn't. Simple, if it is profitable, someone will operate it, believe me, the CMA's and Calm Air's of Canada will turn a buck on the routes that WJ wouldn't or couldn't afford to fly. As for routes that just can't make money, well I'm sorry, but that has to be a subsidy environment. Why on earth should I or anyone else operate a route where I am losing money. An airline isn't a charity, and since it is the government that heaped the dereguated environment onto the airline industry in the first place (to reduce the need for large subsidies to the likes of the then Air Canada elephants of the world), it is up to the governments (Federal and Provincial) to decide whether they should help isolated communities.
As for YYC F/A's comments regarding the need to have a centralised carrier into which to feed, well, I live in a rural community, I have to drive to my nearest airport, (no bus or cabs available in my town), which has one route to one destination. If I cannot interline through on that carrier or one of it's partners to my final destination, then I have to check in again at the larger hub. It is something called an inconvenience. Because I choose to live in the back end of beyond, I accept that it is unreasonable to expect to have an intermodal international transport system on my doorstep. The people of Podunk, NWT know that too.
As for international routes in and out of Canada, they are all subject to bilateral agreements. It limits the number of Canadian and Foreign carriers on a particular route. Lets take YVR-LHR for instance, suppose AC had to pull of the route due to bankruptcy, sure BA would be able to pick up some slack, but they couldn't increase capacity beyond the agreed limits. That scenario would also open up prized slots at LHR for a Canadian carrier, there would be people like Richard Branson (or David Li) falling over themsleves to get the 25% max. foreign stake in a Canadian International carrier (which would likely be increased by the patriotic Feds to help get additional capacity going). And the Canadian secret weapon - our airline labour costs (excluding Air Canada's) are cheaper than anyone else's in the Western World.
From where I'm sitting, Ac's failure wouldn't be any great shakes.
Oh, and another thing, their staff are damn rude and the aeroplan scheme is a rip off.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Rockytop, Tennessee, USA
Posts: 5,898
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Looks like the pilots are getting somewhat concerned even if "there is no panic"...
_________________________________________
Air Canada Pilots Open to Cuts
April 05, 2004 6:09:00 PM ET
By Charles Grandmont
MONTREAL (Reuters) - Air Canada (AC) pilots broke ranks with other unions at the insolvent carrier on Monday, saying they would be open to discuss further cost cuts to save the airline's restructuring plan from falling apart.
The Air Canada Pilots Association also said it would begin its own search for an new equity investor following the withdrawal of a $500 million equity offer from Trinity Time Investments, the personal company of Hong Kong magnate Victor Li.
Li's firm said it would walk away from taking a 31 percent stake in the airline because of its unexpectedly large losses and the unions' opposition to further cuts in labor costs.
``It's not true that there is not a willingness to negotiate,'' a spokesman for the pilots union, Jean-Marc Belanger, said.
``The pilots are disappointed by the possible departure of Trinity, but there is no panic. We will try to keep him on board or we will start looking for someone else.''
The overture from the pilots union comes only a day after Air Canada's five main unions, including the pilots, closed ranks against further cutbacks, leaving little hope of seeing Li extend his offer past its April 30 deadline.
Air Canada said it has already begun its search for a new financial backer. The company would not comment on reports it has approached large Canadian pension funds such as the Caisse de depot et placement du Quebec or the Ontario Teachers' Pension Plan Board.
Spokeswomen for both the Caisse and Teachers declined to comment.
AIR CANADA IN GREATER RISK
Airline experts says the withdrawal of Li has reduced the odds of a successful restructuring of Canada's largest airline and world No. 11, especially since most of the unions remain opposed to changes to their pension plans
``I don't think people realize how close to midnight we are,'' said Jacques Roy, an airline specialist at Ecole des Hautes Etudes Commerciales in Montreal.
``Why would someone invest in a company that can't fly people profitably, even under bankruptcy protection? The operating loss was C$650 million ($500 million) last year, that's even more than what Li wanted to put in,'' he said.
Any new investor is likely to be even more demanding than Li, given Air Canada's skyrocketing fuel costs and mounting competition from low-cost rivals, said Douglas Reid, an airline economist at Queen's University School of Business in Kingston, Ontario.
``Since Li was signed, conditions have deteriorated so fast that no one will give as good a deal,'' Reid said.
``I don't think the airline is doomed, but I think that its chances of survival have taken a very serious turn for the worse,'' he said.
Prime Minister Paul Martin said on Monday that Transport Minister Tony Valeri was closely involved in the file, but still hoped Air Canada would not need government help to sort out its woes.
``You know, it's very, very important that all of the parties redouble our efforts to find a settlement,'' Martin said during a trip north of Toronto.
With a federal election expected this year, many analysts say it is highly unlikely Ottawa would allow the collapse of the airline that carries two-thirds of domestic traffic.
_________________________________________
Air Canada Pilots Open to Cuts
April 05, 2004 6:09:00 PM ET
By Charles Grandmont
MONTREAL (Reuters) - Air Canada (AC) pilots broke ranks with other unions at the insolvent carrier on Monday, saying they would be open to discuss further cost cuts to save the airline's restructuring plan from falling apart.
The Air Canada Pilots Association also said it would begin its own search for an new equity investor following the withdrawal of a $500 million equity offer from Trinity Time Investments, the personal company of Hong Kong magnate Victor Li.
Li's firm said it would walk away from taking a 31 percent stake in the airline because of its unexpectedly large losses and the unions' opposition to further cuts in labor costs.
``It's not true that there is not a willingness to negotiate,'' a spokesman for the pilots union, Jean-Marc Belanger, said.
``The pilots are disappointed by the possible departure of Trinity, but there is no panic. We will try to keep him on board or we will start looking for someone else.''
The overture from the pilots union comes only a day after Air Canada's five main unions, including the pilots, closed ranks against further cutbacks, leaving little hope of seeing Li extend his offer past its April 30 deadline.
Air Canada said it has already begun its search for a new financial backer. The company would not comment on reports it has approached large Canadian pension funds such as the Caisse de depot et placement du Quebec or the Ontario Teachers' Pension Plan Board.
Spokeswomen for both the Caisse and Teachers declined to comment.
AIR CANADA IN GREATER RISK
Airline experts says the withdrawal of Li has reduced the odds of a successful restructuring of Canada's largest airline and world No. 11, especially since most of the unions remain opposed to changes to their pension plans
``I don't think people realize how close to midnight we are,'' said Jacques Roy, an airline specialist at Ecole des Hautes Etudes Commerciales in Montreal.
``Why would someone invest in a company that can't fly people profitably, even under bankruptcy protection? The operating loss was C$650 million ($500 million) last year, that's even more than what Li wanted to put in,'' he said.
Any new investor is likely to be even more demanding than Li, given Air Canada's skyrocketing fuel costs and mounting competition from low-cost rivals, said Douglas Reid, an airline economist at Queen's University School of Business in Kingston, Ontario.
``Since Li was signed, conditions have deteriorated so fast that no one will give as good a deal,'' Reid said.
``I don't think the airline is doomed, but I think that its chances of survival have taken a very serious turn for the worse,'' he said.
Prime Minister Paul Martin said on Monday that Transport Minister Tony Valeri was closely involved in the file, but still hoped Air Canada would not need government help to sort out its woes.
``You know, it's very, very important that all of the parties redouble our efforts to find a settlement,'' Martin said during a trip north of Toronto.
With a federal election expected this year, many analysts say it is highly unlikely Ottawa would allow the collapse of the airline that carries two-thirds of domestic traffic.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 132
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From where I'm sitting, Ac's failure wouldn't be any great shakes.
Oh, and another thing, their staff are damn rude and the aeroplan scheme is a rip off.
Oh, and another thing, their staff are damn rude and the aeroplan scheme is a rip off.
frequent air travellers, Aeroplan has been voted the world's Best Frequent Flyer Program for the second consecutive year.
And as for all staff being damn rude, I think that's a bit of a sweeping generalisation. There's rude staff at every airline, and at every large company. Is it acceptable? No. Does it mean that everyone is rude and doesn't give a toss? No.
I totally agree with your reply about government subsidy for certain unprofitable routes to rural communities (should the goverment feel that service is neccesary and commercial carriers can't make it work etc) - isn't that what I said earlier?
I'm not getting into a p1ssing match here. Just don't feel that some of your anti air canada statements are particularly founded.
Join Date: Aug 1998
Location: The World
Posts: 388
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
skibeagle
The actual operating loss was approximately in the order of $600 million, which was approximately the average operating loss of the major NA carriers.
The rest of the loss was due to one-time write-downs, which is standard in situations like this.
The actual operating loss was approximately in the order of $600 million, which was approximately the average operating loss of the major NA carriers.
The rest of the loss was due to one-time write-downs, which is standard in situations like this.
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Wet Coast
Posts: 2,335
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Can someone enumerate these subsidised 'social' routes flown by mainline AC ? Even Jazz have no presence in the North, none in much of the Prairies and have just dropped some Newfie points.
AC is not losing money serving the boondocks, because they simply don't fly there. Obviously where they are bleeding worst is a closely guarded secret, but I'd take a long look at those RJs flying to minor US cities.
And is now the right time to expand to S. America ? Can't see any profit there myself.
AC is not losing money serving the boondocks, because they simply don't fly there. Obviously where they are bleeding worst is a closely guarded secret, but I'd take a long look at those RJs flying to minor US cities.
And is now the right time to expand to S. America ? Can't see any profit there myself.
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: wonderland
Posts: 133
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
YYC FA,
Just whom exactly voted Aeroplan the "best" frequent flyer program? In Canada maybe ! Wow, competition is stiff there isn't it ! It was probably something like "Business Traveller" magazine, oh yes, right on top of things in that periodical. I'll bet the new booking fee will see that heady award vanish from aeroplan's clutches.
You can never get a seat when you want, ever, so I have always redeemed my miles with United. Now there is a booking fee that they have introduced which wasn't there when I opened my account. So you see, just like the employees expecting their pensions to be there for them when they retire, we customers get duped into thinking there is something there when there isn't - like a flight somewhere on our points.
If you are an AC FA, then I doubt you have ever tried to book an aeroplan seat anywhere. However, may I recommend Alaska Airlines Mileage Plan, should you ever find yourself in the non Z fare or ID90 category.
As for rude staff, generalisation maybe, but that has been my experience of travelling with AC, at best they appear "inert"and usually: "get out of my face, Im not getting into a p1ssing [sic] match with you, I'm right, you're just a fare paying ('cos you can't redeem your aeroplan points) inconvenience to me".
As for sweeping comments, how's this, Air Canada are unpopular with the Canadian public, they have been gouged by that firm ever since true competition disappered after 9/11.
Just whom exactly voted Aeroplan the "best" frequent flyer program? In Canada maybe ! Wow, competition is stiff there isn't it ! It was probably something like "Business Traveller" magazine, oh yes, right on top of things in that periodical. I'll bet the new booking fee will see that heady award vanish from aeroplan's clutches.
You can never get a seat when you want, ever, so I have always redeemed my miles with United. Now there is a booking fee that they have introduced which wasn't there when I opened my account. So you see, just like the employees expecting their pensions to be there for them when they retire, we customers get duped into thinking there is something there when there isn't - like a flight somewhere on our points.
If you are an AC FA, then I doubt you have ever tried to book an aeroplan seat anywhere. However, may I recommend Alaska Airlines Mileage Plan, should you ever find yourself in the non Z fare or ID90 category.
As for rude staff, generalisation maybe, but that has been my experience of travelling with AC, at best they appear "inert"and usually: "get out of my face, Im not getting into a p1ssing [sic] match with you, I'm right, you're just a fare paying ('cos you can't redeem your aeroplan points) inconvenience to me".
As for sweeping comments, how's this, Air Canada are unpopular with the Canadian public, they have been gouged by that firm ever since true competition disappered after 9/11.
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: CYYC
Posts: 410
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My experience with AC staff has been much the same as skibeagle's. The result is that unless AC is the only way to get to my destination, I will fly with someone else. Even if it costs a little more. Many of my friends, family and other people I have talked to generally agree about the quality of service. More often than not I feel like I am an inconvenience on AC, when other airlines make you feel more than welcome. There are probably many different reasons for this, but when it happens so consistently, I am going to steer clear of it.
I suspect this is probably having an effect on AC's passenger levels, which will make it even harder to turn the airline around as you now have to earn the passenger's trust all over again.
goates
PS - I first heard of Pprune on an AC flight while coming back from the Cook Islands, so good things do happen with AC. Just not often enough.
I suspect this is probably having an effect on AC's passenger levels, which will make it even harder to turn the airline around as you now have to earn the passenger's trust all over again.
goates
PS - I first heard of Pprune on an AC flight while coming back from the Cook Islands, so good things do happen with AC. Just not often enough.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 132
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just whom exactly voted Aeroplan the "best" frequent flyer program? In Canada maybe ! Wow, competition is stiff there isn't it ! It was probably something like "Business Traveller" magazine, oh yes, right on top of things in that periodical.
"In an annual survey of the world's most frequent air travellers, Aeroplan has been voted the world's Best Frequent Flyer Program for the second consecutive year. Recipients of the prestigious "OAG" ("Official Airline Guide") "Airline of the Year Awards" were announced at a gala ceremony in London yesterday evening. Aeroplan competed for this award alongside prominent industry leaders, including the frequent flyer programs of British Airways, Continental, Southwest Airlines and Lufthansa.
Aeroplan is known as one of the most rewarding loyalty programs in the industry. In 2002, over 1.4 million round-trips were redeemed for travel on Air Canada and its worldwide Star Alliance partners."
The full article can be read at http://www.newswire.ca/en/releases/a.../11/c0319.html
If you are an AC FA, then I doubt you have ever tried to book an aeroplan seat anywhere. However, may I recommend Alaska Airlines Mileage Plan, should you ever find yourself in the non Z fare or ID90 category.
I'm sorry you've had such negative experiences with Air Canada. I personally know a lot of great people that work at AC, and whom are trying their best to continue to deliver great service and keep positive in a very difficult situation. I hope for them that they don't lose their jobs.
And if some people at AC might seem a bit bitter and jaded, it might be that they've had more than their fair share of preverbial crappola slung at them over the last few years, went through a painful merger of CP and AC (and all the controversy and infighting that this brought), have suffered cutbacks, and (particularly for CSA's and Ground staff) have had to deal with huge numbers of unhappy customers all day due to severe staff shortages. 4 check in agent's total one busy weekend afternoon at Vancouver for entire AC operation, lines out the door. Should they take it out on the customer - no. Do I condone it - not for a moment. Just trying to maybe give you some idea as to why some people at AC are a little bit frayed right now.
The 'p1ssing' comment (sic). Well, I thought that 'pissing' as a word wouldn't work on Pprune with some of the language filters, but I guess it does. So we'll piss to that.
Cheers.
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Calgary, Canada
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My 2 (s)Cents
Hi,
Recently had the 2 of best AC cabin crews of my life to and from LHR - professional, courteous, and friendly. And I've heard the same from friends who recently travelled YYZ-YYC. So maybe it's "make the best of the last 2 weeks" time.
I've personally always had a bit of an anti-union bias, but now have close friends whose families will be severely affected if AC liquidates at a time in their lives they should be enjoying. So how to make the company profitable AND change company culture to get rid of employee-manangement friction? I'm sure someone could get rich with that answer. But it would be nice to see it happen without a whole number of good people loosing their shirts.
Recently had the 2 of best AC cabin crews of my life to and from LHR - professional, courteous, and friendly. And I've heard the same from friends who recently travelled YYZ-YYC. So maybe it's "make the best of the last 2 weeks" time.
I've personally always had a bit of an anti-union bias, but now have close friends whose families will be severely affected if AC liquidates at a time in their lives they should be enjoying. So how to make the company profitable AND change company culture to get rid of employee-manangement friction? I'm sure someone could get rich with that answer. But it would be nice to see it happen without a whole number of good people loosing their shirts.
Too mean to buy a long personal title
YYC F/A:
Not quite.
"In an annual survey of the world's most frequent air travellers, Aeroplan has been voted the world's Best Frequent Flyer Program for the second consecutive year. Recipients of the prestigious "OAG" ("Official Airline Guide") "Airline of the Year Awards" were announced at a gala ceremony in London yesterday evening. Aeroplan competed for this award alongside prominent industry leaders, including the frequent flyer programs of British Airways, Continental, Southwest Airlines and Lufthansa.
Aeroplan is known as one of the most rewarding loyalty programs in the industry. In 2002, over 1.4 million round-trips were redeemed for travel on Air Canada and its worldwide Star Alliance partners."
The full article can be read at http://www.newswire.ca/en/releases/...3/11/c0319.html
Not quite.
"In an annual survey of the world's most frequent air travellers, Aeroplan has been voted the world's Best Frequent Flyer Program for the second consecutive year. Recipients of the prestigious "OAG" ("Official Airline Guide") "Airline of the Year Awards" were announced at a gala ceremony in London yesterday evening. Aeroplan competed for this award alongside prominent industry leaders, including the frequent flyer programs of British Airways, Continental, Southwest Airlines and Lufthansa.
Aeroplan is known as one of the most rewarding loyalty programs in the industry. In 2002, over 1.4 million round-trips were redeemed for travel on Air Canada and its worldwide Star Alliance partners."
The full article can be read at http://www.newswire.ca/en/releases/...3/11/c0319.html
And FWIW, Aeroplan doesn't seem ever to have featured as program of the year at the Freddie Awards. What either of these awards can boast in the way of reliability must, presumably, depend on how the results are calculated.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Rockytop, Tennessee, USA
Posts: 5,898
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
From the "If you can't beat them, sue them" department:
BREAKING NEWS
UPDATED AT 6:28 PM EDT Tuesday, Apr. 6, 2004
Air Canada suing WestJet
Canadian Press
Air Canada sued WestJet Airlines and two of its employees on Tuesday, alleging the discount carrier used information on a private Air Canada website to plan its expansion.
Air Canada alleges WestJet used the personal identification number of Jeffrey Lafond, a former Canadian Airlines employee hired by WestJet as a financial analyst, to access the website and find out detailed information about Air Canada's routes and market conditions.
The private website is used by Air Canada employees to book personal travel.
In its statement of claim filed in Ontario Superior Court, Air Canada alleges WestJet, Lafond, and Mark Hill — the airline's vice-president of strategic planning — used the information to identify Air Canada's most profitable flights and times.
Using that confidential information, WestJet adjusted its own schedule, planned its expansion into new routes and adopted pricing strategies to force its larger competitor out of certain markets, Air Canada alleges.
"Its abuse of the plaintiffs' confidential information has enabled WestJet to expand its service, its revenue and its profitability at a more rapid pace than it would without the plaintiffs' confidential information," Air Canada said.
As part of his separation package when Lafond left Canadian Airlines in October 2000, he received two space-available airline tickets per year for five years. These tickets are booked through the private website.
The airline alleges Lafond's identification number was used 243,630 times between May 15, 2003, and March 19, 2004, to access the website.
"The continuous and massive use of Lafond's employee ID number and PIN to access the employee website could not be done by one individual and far exceeds any possible potential use by Lafond," Air Canada said.
"Such massive access to the employee website through one employee ID number could only be accomplished through automated technology."
Air Canada is seeking $5-million in punitive damages, as well as damages for lost revenues and profits.
The airline also asked that any WestJet profits earned from use of the information be held in trust and that all the data be returned to Air Canada.
Officials at Calgary-based WestJet were not immediately available for comment.
The lawsuit comes as WestJet prepares to move its eastern hub from Hamilton to Toronto and increase flights out of Canada's largest city.
WestJet, which has been eating up domestic market share at Air Canada's expense, is stepping up the pressure, with plans to more than double its flights in and out of Toronto to 365 per week, up from 146, beginning April 18.
Air Canada is searching for a new investor to replace Hong Kong businessman Victor Li and his Trinity Time Investments, which has announced plans to walk away from a $650-million investment in the airline unless significant changes are made.
"The issue for us and for our employees in particular is to find the right investor," chief executive Robert Milton said Tuesday in his first public comments since Trinity announced its plans.
"A person that is just going to write a cheque to potentially rip the company apart is not what the employees need, or what I want."
Some of Canada's largest pension funds as well as Toronto conglomerate Onex Corp. and several U.S. vulture funds have been mentioned as possible replacement investors in the airline.
Michael Carney, a business professor at Concordia University, said the pieces of Air Canada may be worth more than the airline as a whole and an investor like Onex might look to sell off units such as its Aeroplan loyalty program, its Jazz regional subsidiary, and its maintenance division.
"I don't think he necessarily wants that, probably because he likes his little empire that he runs," Carney said of Milton.
An earlier bid by Onex, together with the Texas Pacific Group — a U.S. firm experienced in the turning around airlines — was rejected by the airline's board of directors in favour of Trinity.
Carney, who teaches aviation management, said that had the Texas Pacific bid been selected, Milton would have almost certainly been removed as head of the airline.
"He would be in a very hot seat if those owners came in and it didn't surprise me when they didn't select Texas," Carney said.
Air Canada also filed a motion with the court overseeing its restructuring Tuesday to have its creditor protection, currently set to expire on April 15, extended one month until May 14.
The airline said it needed the time to stabilize the current situation, develop a process to find a new equity sponsor and finalize a timeline to exit from creditor protection.
The bankruptcy monitor overseeing the airline has recommended the extension be approved.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl...tory/Business/
BREAKING NEWS
UPDATED AT 6:28 PM EDT Tuesday, Apr. 6, 2004
Air Canada suing WestJet
Canadian Press
Air Canada sued WestJet Airlines and two of its employees on Tuesday, alleging the discount carrier used information on a private Air Canada website to plan its expansion.
Air Canada alleges WestJet used the personal identification number of Jeffrey Lafond, a former Canadian Airlines employee hired by WestJet as a financial analyst, to access the website and find out detailed information about Air Canada's routes and market conditions.
The private website is used by Air Canada employees to book personal travel.
In its statement of claim filed in Ontario Superior Court, Air Canada alleges WestJet, Lafond, and Mark Hill — the airline's vice-president of strategic planning — used the information to identify Air Canada's most profitable flights and times.
Using that confidential information, WestJet adjusted its own schedule, planned its expansion into new routes and adopted pricing strategies to force its larger competitor out of certain markets, Air Canada alleges.
"Its abuse of the plaintiffs' confidential information has enabled WestJet to expand its service, its revenue and its profitability at a more rapid pace than it would without the plaintiffs' confidential information," Air Canada said.
As part of his separation package when Lafond left Canadian Airlines in October 2000, he received two space-available airline tickets per year for five years. These tickets are booked through the private website.
The airline alleges Lafond's identification number was used 243,630 times between May 15, 2003, and March 19, 2004, to access the website.
"The continuous and massive use of Lafond's employee ID number and PIN to access the employee website could not be done by one individual and far exceeds any possible potential use by Lafond," Air Canada said.
"Such massive access to the employee website through one employee ID number could only be accomplished through automated technology."
Air Canada is seeking $5-million in punitive damages, as well as damages for lost revenues and profits.
The airline also asked that any WestJet profits earned from use of the information be held in trust and that all the data be returned to Air Canada.
Officials at Calgary-based WestJet were not immediately available for comment.
The lawsuit comes as WestJet prepares to move its eastern hub from Hamilton to Toronto and increase flights out of Canada's largest city.
WestJet, which has been eating up domestic market share at Air Canada's expense, is stepping up the pressure, with plans to more than double its flights in and out of Toronto to 365 per week, up from 146, beginning April 18.
Air Canada is searching for a new investor to replace Hong Kong businessman Victor Li and his Trinity Time Investments, which has announced plans to walk away from a $650-million investment in the airline unless significant changes are made.
"The issue for us and for our employees in particular is to find the right investor," chief executive Robert Milton said Tuesday in his first public comments since Trinity announced its plans.
"A person that is just going to write a cheque to potentially rip the company apart is not what the employees need, or what I want."
Some of Canada's largest pension funds as well as Toronto conglomerate Onex Corp. and several U.S. vulture funds have been mentioned as possible replacement investors in the airline.
Michael Carney, a business professor at Concordia University, said the pieces of Air Canada may be worth more than the airline as a whole and an investor like Onex might look to sell off units such as its Aeroplan loyalty program, its Jazz regional subsidiary, and its maintenance division.
"I don't think he necessarily wants that, probably because he likes his little empire that he runs," Carney said of Milton.
An earlier bid by Onex, together with the Texas Pacific Group — a U.S. firm experienced in the turning around airlines — was rejected by the airline's board of directors in favour of Trinity.
Carney, who teaches aviation management, said that had the Texas Pacific bid been selected, Milton would have almost certainly been removed as head of the airline.
"He would be in a very hot seat if those owners came in and it didn't surprise me when they didn't select Texas," Carney said.
Air Canada also filed a motion with the court overseeing its restructuring Tuesday to have its creditor protection, currently set to expire on April 15, extended one month until May 14.
The airline said it needed the time to stabilize the current situation, develop a process to find a new equity sponsor and finalize a timeline to exit from creditor protection.
The bankruptcy monitor overseeing the airline has recommended the extension be approved.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl...tory/Business/
Join Date: Aug 1998
Location: The World
Posts: 388
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Airbubba
Gee this lawsuit speaks volumes about the corporate ethics of West Jet doesn’t it? By the way this is not the first time that West Jet has being caught with dirty hands…
Gee this lawsuit speaks volumes about the corporate ethics of West Jet doesn’t it? By the way this is not the first time that West Jet has being caught with dirty hands…
Surely AC has better things to do with their resources and money right now than start a lawsuit. Just prior to the demise of C3 they also started a lawsuit against the previous owner of Royal, and we all know what happened to C3. Perhaps this is a characteristic of an airline in its death throes, the legal dept. builds themselves some short term job security by starting to sue people?
This also smacks of diversionary news. Does the phrase "Rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic" come to mind.
This also smacks of diversionary news. Does the phrase "Rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic" come to mind.
Last edited by canuck slf; 7th Apr 2004 at 16:34.
Join Date: Aug 1998
Location: The World
Posts: 388
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
canuck slf
Actually the lawsuit is a little more serious then that and could very easily escalate into criminal charges been laid. It appears that AC was aware of the intrusion and set up a sting operation as the number of hits (1500) per day was too obvious. Most likely the espionage was set up as an automated operation with results been analyzed frequently.
It’s easy to have a successful business plan when part of your “business smarts” is obtained via espionage.
Next you’ll be trying to tell us that Clive knew nothing about it…
Actually the lawsuit is a little more serious then that and could very easily escalate into criminal charges been laid. It appears that AC was aware of the intrusion and set up a sting operation as the number of hits (1500) per day was too obvious. Most likely the espionage was set up as an automated operation with results been analyzed frequently.
It’s easy to have a successful business plan when part of your “business smarts” is obtained via espionage.
Next you’ll be trying to tell us that Clive knew nothing about it…
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Wet Coast
Posts: 2,335
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes, and it's easy to look real stupid if you
a) Give ex-employees access to 'sensitive' information
b) Let it go on for 10 months
Globe and Mail:
As does any CRS, and/or public web booking sites (OK so you have to subtract, as only 'available' seats are shown. But it ain't rocket science).
a) Give ex-employees access to 'sensitive' information
b) Let it go on for 10 months
Globe and Mail:
The website contains confidential information about the number of passengers booked on all flights at Air Canada and its subsidiary Zip for up to 352 days in the future, the suit claims.
The information on the site, the carrier claims, could also give competitors “detailed and accurate information” on Air Canada's routes and market conditions that they wouldn't otherwise have.
The information on the site, the carrier claims, could also give competitors “detailed and accurate information” on Air Canada's routes and market conditions that they wouldn't otherwise have.
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: canada
Posts: 99
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just a few points I'd like to make...
1) Aeroplan SUCKS! I've tried many times to use my points, but I was always told "you have to book a year in advance for a warm destination during the winter months"...what a load of
!! I watched an empty AC 767 come into Barbados...loaded with employees, and family affair, and all that other bull !
2) My heart sure won't be broken WHEN AC bites the big one...the only problem that concerns me is that the salary structure in the rest of the country may drop...
3) I just can't understand how a company can lose so much money with over 90% market share....maybe it's those $70000 baggage chuckers...or maybe the Canadian DC10 drivers who have been sitting at home with pay since Canadian was "taken over"....
Just my opinion...bash it if you want...
1) Aeroplan SUCKS! I've tried many times to use my points, but I was always told "you have to book a year in advance for a warm destination during the winter months"...what a load of
!! I watched an empty AC 767 come into Barbados...loaded with employees, and family affair, and all that other bull !2) My heart sure won't be broken WHEN AC bites the big one...the only problem that concerns me is that the salary structure in the rest of the country may drop...
3) I just can't understand how a company can lose so much money with over 90% market share....maybe it's those $70000 baggage chuckers...or maybe the Canadian DC10 drivers who have been sitting at home with pay since Canadian was "taken over"....
Just my opinion...bash it if you want...
Join Date: Aug 1998
Location: The World
Posts: 388
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Paper Tiger
All present and former AC employees are covered by a confidential information clause. You break it at your own peril.
Most likely AC Internet security picked up on the intrusion early on from the abnormally high number of hits and planned a sting operation from that point on. It just wasn’t dumb luck..
By the way one of the defendants is Mark Hill co-founder of WJ so it starts at the top.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
c150driver
1) Stop the exaggeration.
2) The salary structure will definitely head south
3) Get your facts straight.
All present and former AC employees are covered by a confidential information clause. You break it at your own peril.
Most likely AC Internet security picked up on the intrusion early on from the abnormally high number of hits and planned a sting operation from that point on. It just wasn’t dumb luck..
By the way one of the defendants is Mark Hill co-founder of WJ so it starts at the top.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
c150driver
1) Stop the exaggeration.
2) The salary structure will definitely head south
3) Get your facts straight.
Guest
Posts: n/a
While it doesn't speak well for Westjet by introducing questionable ethics (People are still innocent untill proven guilty) - I think AC is trying to stretch this a little to far. The public website does not have the most acurate info, and it is only updated 2 or 3 times a day, even then it's not highly accurate. All Air Canada employees know the most accurate (real time) info for flightloads is on the Spetre (?) system, and that info can only be accessed in house