Fatal Lockheed 12 crash at Chino, 15 Jun 2024

[treadigraph]

Sadly two people have died following the crash of a Lockheed 12 Electra Junior on take off at Chino - operated by the Yanks museum who appear to have had an event going on.

https://asn.flightsafety.org/wikibase/389722

[BonnieLass]

Horrible. RIP to the two who died, strength and condolences to their families, friends and those who worked alongside them.

https://channel3now.com/2024/06/15/2...ardino-county/

[Fargo Boyle]

Very sad. There's a picture on another forum which appears to show the aeroplane just airborne with full flaps deployed.
RIP to the crew.

[treadigraph]

Here's the pic below - also seen a video (on ASN) but too far away to see if flaps were indeed fully down. Aircraft flying very slowly, stall spin to port.

[DogTailRed2]

N93R Lockheed 12A Chino, CA 15 June 2024 (youtube.com)

[Brian Abraham]

Take off made with full flap - pre take off checks?

[island_airphoto]

This is SO frustrating
Some weird malfunction of the flap controls? Not looking out windows?

[B2N2]

Originally Posted by island_airphoto

This is SO frustrating
Some weird malfunction of the flap controls? Not looking out windows?

It appears this type has split flaps in which case they wouldn’t be able to see from the cockpit.
I am assuming these are hydraulic flaps?
Maybe a cockpit flap display malfunctioned.

[DogTailRed2]

Electric flaps and gear?
When operating aircraft where flaps cannot be seen do you rely on ground crew to confirm flap position?

[ehwatezedoing]

Originally Posted by Brian Abraham

Take off made with full flap - pre take off checks?

They look in transition in this picture, not fully extended yet as shown later on.
Why will be the big question.

On a side note, Blancolirio was mentioning in his video (Post #5) That yes, the flaps and gear are operated electrically and by "Plungers" Not by the traditional more ergonomic switches.

[treadigraph]

Another Lockheed 12 has been seriously damaged in a runway excursion in Georgia. Crew reported as seriously injured...

https://asn.flightsafety.org/wikibase/389804

X - Formerly Twitter

[treadigraph]

Apparently been confirmed by his son that Dan Gryder was one of those injured in the Georgia accident.

https://www.flyingmag.com/news/3-lef...eed-12a-crash/

[BugBear]

A sad loss. Prayers for a speedy recovery for Dan, a public treasure

[megan]

Used to do quite a bit of flying in the aircraft in my youth as a pax. The gear and flaps are both electric as mentioned above, the plungers for operation are immediately below the throttle quadrant.

[B2N2]

Originally Posted by megan

Used to do quite a bit of flying in the aircraft in my youth as a pax. The gear and flaps are both electric as mentioned above, the plungers for operation are immediately below the throttle quadrant.

I’m assuming ‘PLUNGER IN” is on the pre take off checklist or flow?

[Pilot DAR]

I have no knowledge of the pilots flying the airplane, nor the factors in the event itself. I do observe from the photo above that this airplane's secondary controls were [obviously] designed long before the design requirement for standardization of engine, gear and flap controls (location, operation, knob shape and colour). The result can be that today's pilots, as skilled as they may be, can still be caught out by a cockpit configuration which differs from the standardization which came into final effect for airplanes certified after 1986. For those of use who fly antique airplanes, it's worth remembering that the arrangement in the cockpit may differ, and not protect one's self from mistakes as a more recently made airplane might.

There was mention of flap position for takeoff. Though I have no knowledge of this type, an example of a split flap airplane using some flap for takeoff would be the Cessna 310, which specifies 15 flap for takeoff. I'm certain that there are other split flap airplanes, for which some flap may be used for takeoff...

[Discorde]

Surely an aircraft should be flyable even with full flaps extended. Consider the case of a go-around after approaching with gear down and full flap. During the GA the gear will be retracted immediately but the flaps will take time to retract. Or in the case of the Lockheed 12 are you committed to landing once the flaps are fully extended?

[what next]

Originally Posted by Discorde

Surely an aircraft should be flyable even with full flaps extended.

Flyable, yes. Able to climb? Maybe, maybe not. This was an "antique" aircraft not built to modern standards. Maybe they did not set maximum power for takeoff in oder to preserve the engines.

Originally Posted by Discorde

During the GA the gear will be retracted immediately but the flaps will take time to retract.

I know it the other way round: "Go-around - Flap takeoff position ..... positive climb - Gear Up" which makes a lot more sense because at low speed the gear usually produces less drag than the flaps in landing position. Depending on type of course.

[mjh FE]

Does 12 have flap position indicator or is it only assumed by the position of the plunger? I found few pics of instrument panel of '12 but could not find indicator.
-M-

[B2N2]

Originally Posted by Discorde

Surely an aircraft should be flyable even with full flaps extended. Consider the case of a go-around after approaching with gear down and full flap. During the GA the gear will be retracted immediately but the flaps will take time to retract. Or in the case of the Lockheed 12 are you committed to landing once the flaps are fully extended?

There is often a misconception that aircraft design and performance requirements have always been in place.
Back in those days pretty much anything goes and they took somewhat of a Darwinistic approach to aircraft design and manufacture.
Whomever crashed the least kinda thing.
There were no human-machine interaction/interface studies, no human factors studies. Just an attitude of we need to fit this in somewhere somehow.