More Turbulence Injuries Qatar to Dublin
In all of my 65 odd years of flying at roughly 40 to 60 flights per year, I have never experienced severe turbulence, only moderate at best. One thing I vividly remember was a ride over the Atlantic Ocean in a Boeing B707. That was extremely choppy for a rather long period of time. What made it worse was being seated in the last row. I might be completely wrong but my impression is that the nearer you are to the rear of the aircraft in turbulence the rougher the ride is from the more evident rudder and elevator corrections. I actually bruised my leg on the seat rest on that flight! Other than that it is simply an uncomfortable feeling, more so at night with possibly no horizon as reference.
JBell; #20
Viewing the larger flight safety picture, severe turbulence encounters are rare events, although with more tabloid reporting (and perhaps global warming), the public perception might assume otherwise.
Avoidance is the primary defence, which starts with flight planning and met forecasts - what to expect, being prepared.
Thence detection of storms with aircraft weather radar or visual; never perfect due to radar limitations in only detecting water content - radar may not detect ice at high level, the main component of large convective storms. Also some storms can build very rapidly.
Thus the need of operators skilled use and interpretation of radar, by looking below the cruise level and deducing what might be higher. Some modern radar systems are semi-automated, with varying degrees of trust.
There are other risks from clear air turbulence or wake turbulence from preceding aircraft which cannot, may-not be detected.
Changing flight route after detection - avoidance by a large distance margin, 10s of miles, may be restricted by ATC, thus think ahead, anticipate, good communication, normally approved.
Training focuses on recovery from abnormal attitudes or flightpath deviation; simulators are useful, but not representative of the surprise factors in an unexpected turbulence encounter. Most advice in turbulence is to maintain constant attitude - ride it out.
/ Not to alarm people, but the initial investigation reports suggest that the SQ encounter was not as severe as it could have been from larger storms (personal experience, test flights near / in medium storms) - not for quoting. /
The points of concern are of the injuries apparently from not being strapped in, and loose objects, food / drinks carts. Public behaviour can be a major contributor for the first point - and don't rely on the seat belts signs, see points above. The carts issue is something which the industry should consider, but proportionately to the risk or resultant issues, e.g. limiting food drinks service increases unruly behaviour, or medical issues re toilet access or DVT. Whilst it is important to address the issues, so too not to overreact.
Public reassurance is required in that flight and cabin crews are highly trained and competent, but no activity is risk free; the public have to play their part. Seat belts are a large contribution to safe operation - fastened at all times even without the belts lights on. This is the most important media message to be conveyed.
/ Another factor to consider - but not for quoting, is that worldly changes, web base social exchange, instant knowledge, might reduce common sense - human nature, aided by the industry's good safety record and past ability to avoid storms; these are incidents of our own success. /
A point for forum discussion.
Viewing the larger flight safety picture, severe turbulence encounters are rare events, although with more tabloid reporting (and perhaps global warming), the public perception might assume otherwise.
Avoidance is the primary defence, which starts with flight planning and met forecasts - what to expect, being prepared.
Thence detection of storms with aircraft weather radar or visual; never perfect due to radar limitations in only detecting water content - radar may not detect ice at high level, the main component of large convective storms. Also some storms can build very rapidly.
Thus the need of operators skilled use and interpretation of radar, by looking below the cruise level and deducing what might be higher. Some modern radar systems are semi-automated, with varying degrees of trust.
There are other risks from clear air turbulence or wake turbulence from preceding aircraft which cannot, may-not be detected.
Changing flight route after detection - avoidance by a large distance margin, 10s of miles, may be restricted by ATC, thus think ahead, anticipate, good communication, normally approved.
Training focuses on recovery from abnormal attitudes or flightpath deviation; simulators are useful, but not representative of the surprise factors in an unexpected turbulence encounter. Most advice in turbulence is to maintain constant attitude - ride it out.
/ Not to alarm people, but the initial investigation reports suggest that the SQ encounter was not as severe as it could have been from larger storms (personal experience, test flights near / in medium storms) - not for quoting. /
The points of concern are of the injuries apparently from not being strapped in, and loose objects, food / drinks carts. Public behaviour can be a major contributor for the first point - and don't rely on the seat belts signs, see points above. The carts issue is something which the industry should consider, but proportionately to the risk or resultant issues, e.g. limiting food drinks service increases unruly behaviour, or medical issues re toilet access or DVT. Whilst it is important to address the issues, so too not to overreact.
Public reassurance is required in that flight and cabin crews are highly trained and competent, but no activity is risk free; the public have to play their part. Seat belts are a large contribution to safe operation - fastened at all times even without the belts lights on. This is the most important media message to be conveyed.
/ Another factor to consider - but not for quoting, is that worldly changes, web base social exchange, instant knowledge, might reduce common sense - human nature, aided by the industry's good safety record and past ability to avoid storms; these are incidents of our own success. /
A point for forum discussion.
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The media are like an old dog chewing on a bone....a few weeks ago it was Boeing, now its turbulence
Turbulence happens all the time, I suspect that it is extremely rare that a day goes by without any turbulence anywhere. It makes for spectacular headlines, adds to the fear factor for nervous flyers and gets clicks on media websites.
Certain media outlets are trying desperately to stoke up a boycott of everything Boeing, maybe they will shift focus to boycotting turbulence
(As if mere humans can control the weather - well OK, perhaps cloud seeding but other forms of weather is Mother Nature at work and nowt else)
Turbulence happens all the time, I suspect that it is extremely rare that a day goes by without any turbulence anywhere. It makes for spectacular headlines, adds to the fear factor for nervous flyers and gets clicks on media websites.
Certain media outlets are trying desperately to stoke up a boycott of everything Boeing, maybe they will shift focus to boycotting turbulence
(As if mere humans can control the weather - well OK, perhaps cloud seeding but other forms of weather is Mother Nature at work and nowt else)
use the WX radar as designed and no it doesn’t irradiate your gonads 😅
Totally agree. I have been flying in this part of the world for almost 10 years and when I hear people saying it was CAT it makes me smile. Sadly nowadays many pilots rely on automatic weather radar and have no idea how to use it on manual mode or to interpret the weather radar image…
Last edited by pineteam; 30th May 2024 at 15:55. Reason: Typo
Totally agree. I have been flying in this part of the world for almost 10 years and when I hear people saying it was CAT it makes me smile. Sadly nowadays many pilots rely on automatic weather radar and have no idea how to use it manual mode or to interpret the weather radar image…
The aisle seats surrounding toilets could have a grip handle on them like on the subway and passengers must grip them while waiting for the loo. Actually all the aisle seats could have them for when walking about the cabin, not that anyone would use them right?
Did anybody mention that pressure to take bare FPL fuel often leads to shy wx avoidance? Wx radar operation in manual mode and interpretation is an art in itself, mastered by a few. Some 3D radars will perform beautifully in auto mode while others seem to display random behaviour. IMHO the whole avoidance thing would require thorough training beyond what we usually get. Another factor worth mentioning is that this 5 star airline had/has a SERVICE first, safety always motto, if you see what they mean (let's don't and say we did). That is why the seatbelt ON sign is not well tolerated by cabin service providers during long periods of time, often disregarded but don't try to bring this safety issue anywhere, Flight OPS know better than wasting time whipping dead horses, remember: safety always, granted, no need to do anyrhing, that milestone was achieved long time ago and we all got the T-shirt to prove It.
These little incidents are solved by the PR doctors and creative remedies are reactively implemented by Flight OPS, always respecting the cast in stone motto.
Did I shed any light on the issue?
These little incidents are solved by the PR doctors and creative remedies are reactively implemented by Flight OPS, always respecting the cast in stone motto.
Did I shed any light on the issue?
Last edited by ant1; 1st Jun 2024 at 10:16.
