Severe turbulence LHR-SIN. One dead.
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I have nothing of value to add. However, if I was a betting man, I would say two FOs were upfront while the Captain was on break.
As to why they didn’t notice, I suspect they were waiting for official clearance to weather avoid, the weather radar was on the wrong setting or they simply misinterpreted the return.
It’ll be interesting to see the final report. I hope the CVR was retained.
As to why they didn’t notice, I suspect they were waiting for official clearance to weather avoid, the weather radar was on the wrong setting or they simply misinterpreted the return.
It’ll be interesting to see the final report. I hope the CVR was retained.
Just watched a report on CNN (I haven’t read all of the posts on this thread). The meteorologist confirmed it to be a convective event rather than CAT. And that it was just not visible on the weather radar and the cell popped up out of almost nothing. Happy to be corrected otherwise, but surely it would be visible, if not on the radar, at least visible in front of them? It was the middle of the afternoon, local time. It appears per the above radar picture that other aircraft managed to navigate around it. Surely vastly experienced 777 drivers who have operated in this region constantly would recognise and be experienced to such upcoming weather conditions?
As I mentioned on this thread last week, surely in the ITCZ regions, the potential inability to get certain deviations (boundary between Yangon and Bangkok FIRs?) in these areas is slightly offset that these cells aren’t exactly fast moving in terms of ground speed… they just pulse up, dump their load and go.
As I mentioned on this thread last week, surely in the ITCZ regions, the potential inability to get certain deviations (boundary between Yangon and Bangkok FIRs?) in these areas is slightly offset that these cells aren’t exactly fast moving in terms of ground speed… they just pulse up, dump their load and go.
Very different if in a group: one cloud's downdraught becomes its neighbours updraught.
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Hopefully, they were not the type of crew that likes to operate long distances with the windows covered over and never taking a peek.
I have seen captains do that and rely on the radar which by the way, does not detect ash from a volcano.
I have seen captains do that and rely on the radar which by the way, does not detect ash from a volcano.
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I am really pleased to be able to share this with you, the first hand account of the Andes Incident in G-ASIX by Captain David Phillips, the pilot in command of VC10 ASIX. A fascinating read and an important record of that flight and what happened that day.
FLIGHT OVER THE ANDES
By
Captain David Phillips
It was not easy, playing Scrabble...
,,. I was not alone in my feelings as was evidenced by the crew when we discussed the entire incident when we were safely back on the ground.
BCal Flight over the Andes 1
BCal Flight over the Andes 2
FLIGHT OVER THE ANDES
By
Captain David Phillips
Part 2
The turbulence had stopped because we were, by this time, over the western edges of the Andes, and Santiago was there before us about twenty miles away. We quickly descended and made a standard approach to the airfield. I was not very confident that the regular approach condition would be able to be made, infact I felt certain that the aircraft must have suffered some structural damage, and it was problematical whether or not the flaps and landing wheels would extend on command. But in the event I went through the normal landing drills and was happy and surprised to find that all the systems worked satisfactorily, and we landed.
After switching off the engines and performing my shutdown drills I hurried back to the passenger cabin to apologize to the passengers and to reassure them that all was well, only to be confronted by a scene of complete chaos and bedlam! The cabin looked as if a bomb had detonated, the loose baggage was everywhere, the toilet doors had all sprung off their hinges, and, I later learned, everything in the nature of breakable goods, bottles, glasses, cups and saucers and so on, was broken in their containers.
Because the passengers had all been firmly strapped in prior to the onset of the turbulence, there were no casualties as far as they were concerned. However, my senior hostess, who had been checking their safety belts according to the standing instructions, had been thrown from the rear of the aircraft to the front, hitting the roof-rack in transit and suffering a severe cut to her cheeks, as well as severe bruising when she finally descended onto the arm of the front seat, breaking it in the process. An ambulance quickly collected her and took her to the Santiago hospital for medical treatment.
Suddenly it was all over and relief began to set in. We had successfully survived what had certainly been my most horrendous experience in the air and there had been moments when I was utterly convinced that we had no hope whatsoever of living to fly another day. On the flight-deck everyone of us was suffering from delayed shock, almost unable to speak and finding it very difficult to move our limbs and vacate our seats. Reality slowly returned to us and we, almost hysterically, started talking, making inane statements, and congratulating ourselves on being alive.
When commonsense had returned I reported the incident to the Control and asked them to send a warning to any other aircraft that might be endeavoring to fly the same route. Unfortunately, although he received the warning, the captain of a Douglas DC8 following us decided that he would ignore the message and he experienced a similar, if slightly miner, situation as ourselves and ended up putting twelve passengers into hospital and damaging the aircraft so much that I believe it was months before it could fly again.
Because of the extreme turbulence we had encountered it was necessary for the company ground engineers to give the aircraft a comprehensive check to determine whether or not we had suffered any structural damage. Such a check was carried out that night in a snow storm and, without taking various panels off the structure, no such damage was evident. Another crew was waiting to fly the aircraft, with passengers, back to England and, following the engineers' report had no reason to be worried about the state of serviceability.
The flight as far as Freetown was without incident. At Freetown another crew took over and, as they flew north towards the UK they started to sense an unusual vibration which slowly increased, and by the time they were descending into London they assessed the vibration as severe. On landing it was clearly seen externally that a portion of the leading edge of the stabilising fin had opened up revealing the main internal structure. It was also evident that the leading edge spar of the fin was broken and that two of the four main bolts holding the tailplane had shattered or cracked. Further inspection revealed that the wings were bent upwards about four feet at their tips indicating that the torsion box, where the wings join the fuselage, was distorted.
Meanwhile, I was safe in my hotel room in Santiago, and the first thing I knew concerning the situation was when I received a telephone call from my fleet captain telling me that the aircraft was very badly damaged and was, in all probability, a "write off", meaning that it probably would never fly again. Together with my First Officer and the injured senior hostess I was requested to return immediately to London to give our reports on the incident. We flew back as passengers by Lufthansa and there has never been a more nervous passenger on any of their flights before or since! Actually, of course, it was a completely uneventful journey, but my nerves had not begun to recover yet from our ordeal and it took me quite a long time to accept that it was a once-in-a-lifetime experience and that it was never likely to come my way again. Infact I made myself go to my local flying club and forced myself into the open cockpit of a Tiger Moth and took it up for a short flight. As that didn't seem too bad I took off again and flew out into the open country and threw myself into a few aerobatics in order to get my confidence back again, with resounding success! Never again did I suffer from any fear of flying!
As for the poor old VC10, G-ASIX, it was months before it was fit to fly the routes again, having had a new torsion box fitted, (which meant removing the wings completely), and a new fin stern post and associated metal skinning. It finally emerged as the strongest VC10 in the business, and I flew it many times subsequently without any qualms whatsoever! Alas, it finally ended it's flying days, as most VC10's have done, with the advent of the new wide bodied super-aircraft, and has been put out to grass, literally, and can be seen by train passengers passing alongside the old Brooklands racetrack in Surrey.
Every passenger aircraft is equipped with a 'black box' which records many of the parameters of controls and instruments during flight, including attitude of the aircraft, speed, altitude, engine power settings and so on, and our VC10 was equipped in such a fashion. The tape recording of our flight over the Andes was duly sent away for analysis but, unfortunately, it was discovered that, due to the excessive strains imposed upon it, the electrical supply to it had failed ninety seconds after encountering the first turbulence. It is true to say that the main turbulence was encountered during the latter stages of the incident, but there was no record of this part of the flight. However, even during the first ninety seconds, the aircraft had been subjected to forces way beyond its design limitations, and it was a miracle that the airframe and wings had remained attached on that occasion. It says a lot for the safety margins built into the VC10 by the designers and constructors, Vickers Aircraft.
The entire episode was a salutary lesson to me and was, in truth, a turning point in my relationship with my God. Above all it proved to me that He listens, is forgiving, and, with out doubt, has a sense of humor!
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Summary: ~11 seconds from start of turbulence to seat belt sign on, then ~9 seconds to -1.5g. Then 4 seconds to +1.5g.
-1.5g could have been a combination of a sudden downdraft with a pushover by the autopilot to return to the set altitude. Does the autopilot on the 777 have any g-limit?
-1.5g could have been a combination of a sudden downdraft with a pushover by the autopilot to return to the set altitude. Does the autopilot on the 777 have any g-limit?
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According to his family and friends, he had undergone significant heart surgery including stents prior to taking what he had called his "last holiday" with his wife. The holiday was going to involve a lot of fights, mostly longhaul.
Sitting on a fence as devil's advocate, when the news first broke as to this gentleman's cause of death and his extensive heart issues and surgery, and I mean absolutely no disrespect towards him, I did question the decision to take this holiday given his physical condition. Longhaul flying takes it out of you, even moreso when you have been seriously unwell.
It is so difficult to think the "what if" scenarios and questions.....should he have gone on this holiday knowing his heart was so badly damaged, was his wife and family truly aware of the extent of his health issues? That will never be known.
Experiencing such severe turbulence combined with his already known health issues and if not on this specific flight, it could have occurred on any of the rest of the planned flights during this holiday.
Again I am not being disrespectful in that it would be the same for an elderly person giving up a driving licence, for example, when do families step in and persuade a loved on that perhaps flying that distance with the potential difficulties that could happen..when do families or friends say "I don't think you should go"
It's just so very tragic...the whole incident is just very very sad for everyone involved on that aircraft.
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Hopefully any passengers who did not have their seatbelts fastened, will not receive the same compensation as those injured while moving to the washroom, what is it with these IDIOTS who can't wait to unfasten when the seatbelt sign is turned off, in my flying career I made a point in my PA's to mention to leave your seatbelt fastened when not moving about the cabin!
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Wow, -1.5g for 0.6 seconds. 3x the value I calculated based on ADS-B altitude (FL) reports (-0.5g for a period of 2 seconds).
An unstrapped passenger (aisle seat, 1meter to go) would be accelerated up to a speed of 5,5m/s (20 km per hour) in only 0.37 seconds until meeting the cabin ceiling.
Similar force when smashing down with the similar dynamics now on sturdy armrests (do they have a rated break point designed in?).
An unstrapped passenger (aisle seat, 1meter to go) would be accelerated up to a speed of 5,5m/s (20 km per hour) in only 0.37 seconds until meeting the cabin ceiling.
Similar force when smashing down with the similar dynamics now on sturdy armrests (do they have a rated break point designed in?).
From Prelim Report:
Speed Brakes (Spoilers/air brakes) on commercial aircraft would be those on the top surface of the wings and do just that, spoil the laminate flow over the upper wing surface which just happens to be the major lift surface, me thinks this is a somewhat questionable action.
Pure speed brakes could be fuselage mounted and I think Fokker 100 used that method.
I would not have expected the B777 uses spoilers coupled for turbulence damping.
Speed Brakes (Spoilers/air brakes) on commercial aircraft would be those on the top surface of the wings and do just that, spoil the laminate flow over the upper wing surface which just happens to be the major lift surface, me thinks this is a somewhat questionable action.
Pure speed brakes could be fuselage mounted and I think Fokker 100 used that method.
I would not have expected the B777 uses spoilers coupled for turbulence damping.
Last edited by aeromech3; 29th May 2024 at 14:57.
Speed Brakes (Spoilers/air brakes) on commercial aircraft would be those on the top surface of the wings and do just that, spoil the laminate flow over the upper wing surface which just happens to be the major lift surface, me thinks this is a somewhat questionable action.
I do know that in many circumstances in turbulence with the speed running up pulling the thrust back was unlikely to achieve much in the time available..
Somebody much more current than me will no doubt be along shortly to confirm/deny.
My estimates were based on the severity of the injuries: I wasn't far off: actually it was -1.5g to +1.5g. Not possible to brace yourself/hold onto something at those g-loads. And even standing up -1.5g is going to hurt. But not as much as +1.5g when you get dumped onto the seats/floor.
~25 years ago (ripe old age of 42), I had a heart attack while on a business trip (lower cardiac artery completely blocked - known in medical circles as "The Widow Maker"). After angioplasty and a stint, the cardiologist literally grounded me until I could take a treadmill test a few weeks later (after which he pronounced me completely healthy and told me I could resume normal activities).
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You might think that and I’m no longer current on the T7 but as I recall it the teaching (Boeing, from the FCTM) was very much use speed brakes if you were headed for an overspeed in turbulence.
I do know that in many circumstances in turbulence with the speed running up pulling the thrust back was unlikely to achieve much in the time available..
Somebody much more current than me will no doubt be along shortly to confirm/deny.
I do know that in many circumstances in turbulence with the speed running up pulling the thrust back was unlikely to achieve much in the time available..
Somebody much more current than me will no doubt be along shortly to confirm/deny.
Would like to see the speed/pitch/autopilot traces but it appears? That the autopilot was probably in for the altitude gain which would have led to a pitch down input and then they hit the down draft having left the updraft increasing the negative G. As I wrote re DC10..AUTOPILOT AUTOTRIM AUTO THROTTLE OFF..MAINTAIN CRUISE SETTINGS INCLUDING PITCH.
It’s called fly the aircraft..simples.
Overspeed use airbrakes which I once did as a young second officer in extreme wave south of the alps.
Looks like possible mis use of radar (done that)..bad luck..constrained by company procedures (taught to leave the autopilot in as it does a better job - made that mistake too).
Gets down to always have someone experienced on the flight deck as didn’t happen with AF447.
My last lot enlarged with two full crews..captain/ SFO/SEO.
It’s called fly the aircraft..simples.
Overspeed use airbrakes which I once did as a young second officer in extreme wave south of the alps.
Looks like possible mis use of radar (done that)..bad luck..constrained by company procedures (taught to leave the autopilot in as it does a better job - made that mistake too).
Gets down to always have someone experienced on the flight deck as didn’t happen with AF447.
My last lot enlarged with two full crews..captain/ SFO/SEO.
Looking at the Prelim Info I think this should be categorized as a jet upset event and not a severe turbulence event. The info refers to slight airframe vibrations. This event is very similar to the Qantas jet upset near Learmonth in its profile, not though in its cause. The Qantas event was unpredictable whereas flying into convective activity is not.
Again I am not being disrespectful in that it would be the same for an elderly person giving up a driving licence, for example, when do families step in and persuade a loved on that perhaps flying that distance with the potential difficulties that could happen..when do families or friends say "I don't think you should go"
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