Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island
Because they have left an audit trail with landing fees, fuel and hotel being paid for. There is a narrative being pushed that private pilots can accept expenses for operating commercial flights. They cannot. They can split expenses equally with their passengers. On a US registered aircraft it is even worse, the pilot has to have common purpose with the passengers. This would have meant that Ibbotson also wished to see Sala’s team mates and put Sala’s dog into kennels. He very clearly did not.
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My take is that certain parties dug a hole into which Mr Ibbotson fell, for a variety of possible reasons (over-confidence, over-enthusiasm or even much-needed financial incentive). Whilst it could be argued, quite reasonably, that those certain parties are culpable for digging said hole, it was only Mr Ibbotson who flew into it.
A sad story, with many lessons to be hopefully highlighted by AAIB in due course.
A sad story, with many lessons to be hopefully highlighted by AAIB in due course.
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Just reading a telegraph article about transfers and tax and a thought comes to mind. It says traditionally football agent fees for representing a player are paid by the club but are a taxable benefit to the player. It says recently (some?) footballers have been ‘representing themselves’ and agents act as ‘consultants’ to the club. This meaning the fees become a business expense and not a benefit. (No benefit in kind, no 40% tax).
I wonder what HMRC’s view of this will be when it comes to all the emails, texts, and public statements that’s have been made about who did what and for what benefit.
I wonder what HMRC’s view of this will be when it comes to all the emails, texts, and public statements that’s have been made about who did what and for what benefit.
My take is that certain parties dug a hole into which Mr Ibbotson fell, for a variety of possible reasons (over-confidence, over-enthusiasm or even much-needed financial incentive). Whilst it could be argued, quite reasonably, that those certain parties are culpable for digging said hole, it was only Mr Ibbotson who flew into it.
A sad story, with many lessons to be hopefully highlighted by AAIB in due course.
A sad story, with many lessons to be hopefully highlighted by AAIB in due course.
My take is that certain parties dug a hole into which Mr Ibbotson fell, for a variety of possible reasons (over-confidence, over-enthusiasm or even much-needed financial incentive). Whilst it could be argued, quite reasonably, that those certain parties are culpable for digging said hole, it was only Mr Ibbotson who flew into it.
A sad story, with many lessons to be hopefully highlighted by AAIB in due course.
A sad story, with many lessons to be hopefully highlighted by AAIB in due course.
I would also add that this arrangement (financial or otherwise), would have probably put some quite considerable pressure on Mr. Ibbotson to "get the job done".
This is the only reason I can think of why he would have even considered flying outside his licensing priviledges.
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runway30 ... I have no doubt that ‘certain parties’ will come under the spotlight in due course. But sadly Mr Ibbotson was the one who drove into the hole created for him.
Webby737 ... acknowledged.
Webby737 ... acknowledged.
Because they have left an audit trail with landing fees, fuel and hotel being paid for. There is a narrative being pushed that private pilots can accept expenses for operating commercial flights. They cannot. They can split expenses equally with their passengers. On a US registered aircraft it is even worse, the pilot has to have common purpose with the passengers. This would have meant that Ibbotson also wished to see Sala’s team mates and put Sala’s dog into kennels. He very clearly did not.
They cannot. They can split expenses equally with their passengers.
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They cannot. They can split expenses equally with their passengers.
Can you explain what that is based on? On the basis that we are talking about the expenses of the flight, direct costs of making the flight can be shared between Pilot & Pax, no requirement for equality in that sharing under UK rules.
Can you explain what that is based on? On the basis that we are talking about the expenses of the flight, direct costs of making the flight can be shared between Pilot & Pax, no requirement for equality in that sharing under UK rules.
Pegase Driver
Anyway the AAIB will probably not going to investigate this as it falls outside their level of expertise and it is anyway outside the scope of ICAO Annex 13 , this is for the criminal investigation to do I would say, if there is a criminal investigation..
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I think I said it before but.....
On the face of forum speculation, there doesn't appear to be a smoking gun. There is, however, a balance of probability that puts a number of people in the spotlight. I personally don't expect any criminal prosecutions for this event, but I fully expect a load of insurance company sponsored ambulance chasers in the civil courts. (Said as someone who occasionally does expert witness work for such occurrences).
On the face of forum speculation, there doesn't appear to be a smoking gun. There is, however, a balance of probability that puts a number of people in the spotlight. I personally don't expect any criminal prosecutions for this event, but I fully expect a load of insurance company sponsored ambulance chasers in the civil courts. (Said as someone who occasionally does expert witness work for such occurrences).
If it is discovered that this is illegal public transport then the illegal operator is also responsible.
European and National regulations permit cost sharing as follows:
- The flight is a cost-shared flight by private individuals.
- The direct costs of the flight must be shared between all of the occupants of the aircraft, including the pilot, up to a maximum of 6 persons.
- The cost-sharing arrangements apply to any other-than complex motor-powered EASA aircraft and this includes aircraft registered outside of the EASA area but operated by an operator established or residing in the Community.
- Cost-sharing is also permitted in non-EASA (Annex II of the Basic Regulation) aircraft registered in the UK.
Direct costs means the costs directly incurred in relation to a flight (e.g. fuel, airfield charges, rental fee for an aircraft). There can be no element of profit.
Annual costs which cannot be included in the cost sharing are the cost of keeping, maintaining, insuring and operating the aircraft over a period of one calendar year. There can be no element of profit.
Additional guidance
- In the case of a jointly-owned aircraft, the CAA considers the hourly rate, normally payable by a joint owner, for use of their aircraft to be a 'direct cost'.
- Cost shared flights can be advertised, including the use of online 'flight sharing' platforms.
- It is recommended that any advertising or promotion of cost-sharing flights makes it clear that they are private arrangements and not conducted in accordance with commercial air transport or, where appropriate, public transport rules.
- Passengers should be made aware that the pilot may amend or cancel the flight for any reason, including at short notice.
- The proportion of the costs that must be shared by the pilot is not specified in the regulations; however, the pilot must make a contribution to the direct costs of the flight that he is conducting.
- The General Exemption (ORS4 No.1274) which permits cost-sharing flights for Annex II aircraft only applies to flights conducted within the London and Scottish Information Regions.
Great, I’m off to start my air charter company. Can you guys form a queue outside my door, I’m hiring, but don’t forget when it all goes wrong you’re responsible and I’ll be in the Bahamas.
And it will go wrong, because they will be illegal private flights - but private flights nevertheless.
The final outcome of this investigation will make an interesting read.
I can't help but feel sorry for Mr. Ibbotson, whilst I don't in any way condone his actions of deciding to fly that evening I can sort of understand why.
As others have mentioned, the hole was dug for him long before it got into that aircraft.
However, surely the root cause of this accident is the aviation industry, as an aircraft engineer I (thankfully) never had to go down the expensive, torturous route of trying to get a job flying a commercial aircraft.
Now, I don't know if Mr. Ibbotson was happy tootling around the skies with a PPL of if he had greater ambitions.
Assuming the latter, he would have (understandably) almost taken any opportunity to build up his hours.
IMHO, it's the system thats to blame, as far as I'm aware you don't hear of accountants, lawyers, surgeons etc. paying for their training, work experience, place of work etc.
Now I'll get off my soap box !
I can't help but feel sorry for Mr. Ibbotson, whilst I don't in any way condone his actions of deciding to fly that evening I can sort of understand why.
As others have mentioned, the hole was dug for him long before it got into that aircraft.
However, surely the root cause of this accident is the aviation industry, as an aircraft engineer I (thankfully) never had to go down the expensive, torturous route of trying to get a job flying a commercial aircraft.
Now, I don't know if Mr. Ibbotson was happy tootling around the skies with a PPL of if he had greater ambitions.
Assuming the latter, he would have (understandably) almost taken any opportunity to build up his hours.
IMHO, it's the system thats to blame, as far as I'm aware you don't hear of accountants, lawyers, surgeons etc. paying for their training, work experience, place of work etc.
Now I'll get off my soap box !
Last edited by Webby737; 10th Feb 2019 at 16:45. Reason: grammer
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By all accounts this aircraft has been engaged in these activities for quite some time so an audit of the historic movements of money relating to its operation will reveal who is likely to have funded its fateful last flight.
I have no idea how much a Malibu costs to run but I am able to estimate that the fuel cost alone is some £150/hr. So what is the likelihood that the owner is a charitable organisation set up to provide free transportation to ridiculously wealthy footballers?
complex confusion
Last edited by EXDAC; 10th Feb 2019 at 19:06. Reason: added "cost sharing" to "any EASA regulation"
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