Aerobatics in a 407 (Incl. video)
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Don't know how accurate the following statement is, but someone APPARENTLY Rolled and Looped a 407 at the Durban Virginia airshow, South Africa. (???)
Any comments?
Any comments?
in the head 
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Virginia Airshow
Great Airshow! Virginia does have the finest location for an airshow in the world. Full program and yes the 407 was looped and rolled much to the amazement of everyone present and on completion to the disbelief of the guys at Bell who were contacted.
They obviously cannot give the OK to such a display as it would set a huge precedent and open them to massive potential claims. The pilot on the day apparently did not exceed 60% tq, speeds were calculated and the manouvres were all done at 1 G. If this was in fact the case then there should be no stresses to the machine, however the possibility of things going wrong could have led to a mess.
I think that we can all see that if Bell were to give this a nod, then we would have many barely qualified people starting to do aerobatics and the resulting potential liability for Bell would be huge.
Airliners in the form of 1-Time (DC-9) and Nationwide performed some great flypasts. SAA were missed especially since they have gained a reputation worldwide for fantastic displays yet are unable to perform at a local event.
Silver Falcons had only one member present as the others have flu?! In days gone by, I am almost certail the show would have continued but the new generation....Bleat!
Sasol Tigers in their L-29's had bit of a touch on Saturday brining their display to an early end. Earlier they had given a very good formation display.
All in all a great day. The best thing about Virginia is the great weather in the middle of winter and the fact that it draws people for all over the world for the day and it is a great venue to sit back and meet old buddies, toss back a few cans of neck oil and revel with other genuine aviation junkies. (Like 4holerpoler who came half way accross the world for the show) I never miss the show!
They obviously cannot give the OK to such a display as it would set a huge precedent and open them to massive potential claims. The pilot on the day apparently did not exceed 60% tq, speeds were calculated and the manouvres were all done at 1 G. If this was in fact the case then there should be no stresses to the machine, however the possibility of things going wrong could have led to a mess.
I think that we can all see that if Bell were to give this a nod, then we would have many barely qualified people starting to do aerobatics and the resulting potential liability for Bell would be huge.
Airliners in the form of 1-Time (DC-9) and Nationwide performed some great flypasts. SAA were missed especially since they have gained a reputation worldwide for fantastic displays yet are unable to perform at a local event.
Silver Falcons had only one member present as the others have flu?! In days gone by, I am almost certail the show would have continued but the new generation....Bleat!
Sasol Tigers in their L-29's had bit of a touch on Saturday brining their display to an early end. Earlier they had given a very good formation display.
All in all a great day. The best thing about Virginia is the great weather in the middle of winter and the fact that it draws people for all over the world for the day and it is a great venue to sit back and meet old buddies, toss back a few cans of neck oil and revel with other genuine aviation junkies. (Like 4holerpoler who came half way accross the world for the show) I never miss the show!
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Aerobatics in a 407
Obviously "wowing" the crowd.
It is said that the machine never exceeded 60% torque and all maneouvers never exceeded 1G.
Let's hear 'em.... comments please....
It is said that the machine never exceeded 60% torque and all maneouvers never exceeded 1G.
Let's hear 'em.... comments please....
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Can anyone tell me who the pilot of the 407 was?
On one hand, this guy deserves a hand shake and on the other, i would say he must be partially insane....
Next thing we will have Tom, Dick and Harry trying to duplicate these moves.....
Cheers
On one hand, this guy deserves a hand shake and on the other, i would say he must be partially insane....
Next thing we will have Tom, Dick and Harry trying to duplicate these moves.....
Cheers
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Sir Cumference,
Thanks for a great update.
I must admit the "rolling" of the 407 is a worrying fact to me as well.
Being an "old bold' pilot - it aint good for any youngsters to see this - especially if illegal.
I remember in 94 when I was asked to roll a BK 117.
I went through the correct channels and DCA dis -approved as Lansav dis - approved and of course BK dis - approve unless changes on the tail boom was made (cutting of the vertical stabilizer if I remember correctly).
Well CAA reads this and I am sure they will have something to say ...
Thanks for a great update.
I must admit the "rolling" of the 407 is a worrying fact to me as well.
Being an "old bold' pilot - it aint good for any youngsters to see this - especially if illegal.
I remember in 94 when I was asked to roll a BK 117.
I went through the correct channels and DCA dis -approved as Lansav dis - approved and of course BK dis - approve unless changes on the tail boom was made (cutting of the vertical stabilizer if I remember correctly).
Well CAA reads this and I am sure they will have something to say ...
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The show was part of the Starlight/Flashlight/Glow worm/Broken torch display. The driver and I am not sure if I can mention names on this site would be known to Guns as he was once in charge of a local Air Force in times when homelands were made independant.
If that makes sense, then you will know who it was.
SC
If that makes sense, then you will know who it was.
SC
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The Manual on the 407 prohibits these manouvers, so I'm not surprised that the Bell guys condemned it.
The pilot may be a highly skilled aviator, but what did he intend to prove with these manouvers? To show how good he is.......?
If it is indeed true that the helicopter was rolled and looped, one can only but wonder if the CAA approved the manouver?Permission is required from the CAA when any manouver, conducted or performed outside of the normal category of operation is intended.
If it was my helicopter, I would fire the pilot immediately, as irrespective of what he (the pilot) or anyone else says about the manouvers, that no G's were pulled etc, one will never know.
What if damage was done, and something goes wrong in the future? Who is to blame then???
I would say that it is nothing other than irresponsible!
The pilot may be a highly skilled aviator, but what did he intend to prove with these manouvers? To show how good he is.......?
If it is indeed true that the helicopter was rolled and looped, one can only but wonder if the CAA approved the manouver?Permission is required from the CAA when any manouver, conducted or performed outside of the normal category of operation is intended.
If it was my helicopter, I would fire the pilot immediately, as irrespective of what he (the pilot) or anyone else says about the manouvers, that no G's were pulled etc, one will never know.
What if damage was done, and something goes wrong in the future? Who is to blame then???
I would say that it is nothing other than irresponsible!
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Mmmmm, I also read the thread on the African Aviation Forum.
I have never flown a 407, and would therefore not know if any semi aerobatic or aerobatic manouvers are permitted on the 407. I kinda don't think so.
Shawn or Nick, it will be interesting to hear what you guys have to say.
I have often seen aerobatic type manouvers performed in helicopters at airshows all over the world, but I have NEVER seen a 407 rolled or looped.
In some instances, the pilot pulls the helicopter's nose up pretty high, and when he gets to the top near zero speed, he rolls it into a right hand turn with cyclic, whilst pulling up the power and introducing right pedal to assist the turn, and comes down almost vertically. Often it looks like the helicopter went momentarily upside down, but in fact it did'nt.
Maybe we can even get a comment from the pilot. Would be interesting.
I have never flown a 407, and would therefore not know if any semi aerobatic or aerobatic manouvers are permitted on the 407. I kinda don't think so.
Shawn or Nick, it will be interesting to hear what you guys have to say.
I have often seen aerobatic type manouvers performed in helicopters at airshows all over the world, but I have NEVER seen a 407 rolled or looped.
In some instances, the pilot pulls the helicopter's nose up pretty high, and when he gets to the top near zero speed, he rolls it into a right hand turn with cyclic, whilst pulling up the power and introducing right pedal to assist the turn, and comes down almost vertically. Often it looks like the helicopter went momentarily upside down, but in fact it did'nt.
Maybe we can even get a comment from the pilot. Would be interesting.
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Sir Cumference, from your posting it appears you know the pilot. Maybe you can ask him to tell us how he conducted the manouvers. If he won't, maybe he will tell you, and you can tell us.
Would be really interesting to hear more about this.
Would be really interesting to hear more about this.
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Looping and rolling
You know, breaking the rules, especially in front of a large crowd, is not only stupid, but is irresponsible as it can provoke others to do the same thing. "If he/she can do it, I'm sure I can too."
I remember a well-known pilot who nearly killed himself at Lanseria some years ago when he tried to imitate the brilliant display of another pilot earlier in the programme. I especially remember the noise the crowd made when he disappeared from sight. Horror.
When will these "aces" learn ?
Shaking my head sadly, as I remember friends who have killed themselves on a sudden inspiration.
oTd
I remember a well-known pilot who nearly killed himself at Lanseria some years ago when he tried to imitate the brilliant display of another pilot earlier in the programme. I especially remember the noise the crowd made when he disappeared from sight. Horror.
When will these "aces" learn ?
Shaking my head sadly, as I remember friends who have killed themselves on a sudden inspiration.
oTd
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Loops And Rolls
To answer a few of the burning questions, not all, here is what i KNOW to be true, not assumed.
You will all know that a special flight permit is issued by the CAA for EVERY routine performed at an airshow. The deisgnated CAA chap is a highly respected and experienced head of helicopter ops in SA, who approved the routine. This is an exceptional case, where the heli was rolled and looped the day before too.
Bell prohibits the maneouvre, for exactly the reasons named before, to prevent youngsters hopping into dads R22 and going large. A rigid-semi-rigid head is fully capable of 3D flight, as long as a load is always on the blades and the flight envelope is never exceeded.
It was a show-stopper, and even His Eminance was screaming about it never even being seen at Farnborough.
The pilot was VERY experienced, both 50% owners of the 407 were in the crowd and the insurers were informed. Bell, after hearing of the event, flew an inspector to Virginia and pronouced the heli undamaged and safe.
Anyone who saw it saw something unique. A civvie heli has NEVER been rolled and looped at an airshow, and i mean 360 deg turns, not rooivalk wing-overs. After all this noise, you can be pretty sure it aint happenin' again.
You will all know that a special flight permit is issued by the CAA for EVERY routine performed at an airshow. The deisgnated CAA chap is a highly respected and experienced head of helicopter ops in SA, who approved the routine. This is an exceptional case, where the heli was rolled and looped the day before too.
Bell prohibits the maneouvre, for exactly the reasons named before, to prevent youngsters hopping into dads R22 and going large. A rigid-semi-rigid head is fully capable of 3D flight, as long as a load is always on the blades and the flight envelope is never exceeded.
It was a show-stopper, and even His Eminance was screaming about it never even being seen at Farnborough.
The pilot was VERY experienced, both 50% owners of the 407 were in the crowd and the insurers were informed. Bell, after hearing of the event, flew an inspector to Virginia and pronouced the heli undamaged and safe.
Anyone who saw it saw something unique. A civvie heli has NEVER been rolled and looped at an airshow, and i mean 360 deg turns, not rooivalk wing-overs. After all this noise, you can be pretty sure it aint happenin' again.
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Interesting question.
Can it be looped and rolled? Probably. Maybe by someone who really knew what they were doing.
You might check exactly what was done. I remember someone in England years ago who did what appeared to be a loop in, if I remember correctly, a Gazelle. On closer examination it was a sort of loop, but at about 10 degrees or so off vertical. From the ground it looked like a loop....
Should it be looped and rolled? No. There's more to doing aerobatics than just throwing the machine around the sky. The hydraulic system may not be pressurized, so that if you get to the top of the loop and screw it up, you suddenly may not have the controls working. The engine and tranmission oil system are not designed for any sort of sustained operation at low G, and the loads on the rotor and dynamic components are undefined.
I'd quietly drop a word with the S. African insurance companies to have them have a chat with the pilot (and owner, if different) that this is not a good idea.
Can it be looped and rolled? Probably. Maybe by someone who really knew what they were doing.
You might check exactly what was done. I remember someone in England years ago who did what appeared to be a loop in, if I remember correctly, a Gazelle. On closer examination it was a sort of loop, but at about 10 degrees or so off vertical. From the ground it looked like a loop....
Should it be looped and rolled? No. There's more to doing aerobatics than just throwing the machine around the sky. The hydraulic system may not be pressurized, so that if you get to the top of the loop and screw it up, you suddenly may not have the controls working. The engine and tranmission oil system are not designed for any sort of sustained operation at low G, and the loads on the rotor and dynamic components are undefined.
I'd quietly drop a word with the S. African insurance companies to have them have a chat with the pilot (and owner, if different) that this is not a good idea.
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mhhhh .. to this day I still get compliments about me , him and a Casa at the Tzaneen Airshow.If it is the man I think it is ... he is way to professional not to get permission and everything in place !
VIVA CE ... now please get us the video and pics man
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I doubt that the insurance was told the 407 was going to do full-on aerobatics, in (apparent) breach of CARs, manufacturers specs, etc. And even if it was told, so what? If what he did was illegal, no matter how many times you tell some insurance idiot, who knows nothing about flying and cares even less, they ain't gonna pay when you break the 'plane! As far as I know, all insurance relies on what you're doing being legal, which is why you won't get paid if you wrap your car around a lamppost while you're drunk. It'll be interesting to hear what CAA have to say, if they actually care enough to say anything at all. Do I sound cynical? Surely not!
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Hey....if Brian could broadcast the drivers name to 15 000 spectators at the show, why the big secret here....?
For pilots ...you sure have a bunch of "moangatte" here ready to shoot him down in flames......
Well done that man.......a world first !!
For pilots ...you sure have a bunch of "moangatte" here ready to shoot him down in flames......
Well done that man.......a world first !!
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The unprofessional cowboy Dirtbags !
And I wonder why 407's have such a bad rap in SA !
The 407 is quite capable of cutting off the finlets in any abnormal ops, (very short mast) plus the Tailboom is a known weak point so it's a wonder that these clowns never hurt the aircraft ...or did they..???
Please get us a registration number or S/N, I don't ever want to fly that aircraft !
And I wonder why 407's have such a bad rap in SA !
The 407 is quite capable of cutting off the finlets in any abnormal ops, (very short mast) plus the Tailboom is a known weak point so it's a wonder that these clowns never hurt the aircraft ...or did they..???
Please get us a registration number or S/N, I don't ever want to fly that aircraft !